SCADAPack 5407 replacement

[Abanoub]

Hi community,

I am searching for a direct replacement for SCADAPack DO Expansion module 5407.

Here are the specs of 5407 we have to comply..

Operate time = 5ms typical 10ms max

Release time = 2ms typical 10ms max

Bounce Time = 3ms typical

Max current/ channel = 2A.

Appreciate your support.

[Joel_Weder · Accepted solution]

The most similar replacement module for the 5407 8-point relay output module is the 5415, which is a 12-point relay output module. However, the 5415 does not match the specifications you have listed, with 20ms typical Operate time and 25ms typical Release time.

For very fast Operate and Release time you may want to consider a solid-state (FET) output module rather than a relay module. They switch so quickly that these specs are not even noted. The 5409 can handle 2 amps continuous on each output, for example.  You did not mention the voltage being switched - the 5409 is typically for 12 or 24 volt systems.

[BevanWeiss · Accepted solution]

Important to note that FET outputs can only handle DC voltages/currents.  Which is generally the most common anyway.

However, it's still not uncommon to see 12VAC / 24VAC field actuators in use, which would require either a dry contact relay style output, or an alternative solid state relay (thyristor driven, not FET).

My suggestion would be to utilise the 5409 with a 24VDC supply, and then if AC switching is required (or anything else requiring true dry contacts) to utilise some slimline terminal relays (these are available from a large number of vendors, ABB, Finder, Phoenix Contact, Allen-Bradley, etc, etc.. heck probably even Schneider).

The Finder 38 series relays are in the <10ms range for the electromechanical type, the SSR type are generally sub-ms

https://www.finder-relais.net/en/finder-relays-series-38.pdf

[Abanoub]

@Joel_Weder, @BevanWeiss Thanks for your concern!

The problem is that 5409 doesn't exist on BuyAutomation and i think it is obsolete so do 5407.

[MartinChartrand · Accepted solution]

Just a minor correction to the conversation, the 5409 is still available and can be ordered using part number TBUX297117. It was not on the list of 5000-Series I/O expansion modules that were retired in 2020 or 2021.

Martin

[Abanoub]

Pretty clear, Thanks all!

However, we received a clarification from the customer asking to know the internal built-in relays type in module 5415 compared with the old type Omron relays in the obsolete module 5407.

Can we get this data?

@Joel_Weder, @BevanWeiss, @MartinChartrand 

[MartinChartrand · Accepted solution]

Hello,

I can't get you name of the components easily but I can provide the specifications from the user manuals.

Please note that the 5415 comes in two versions: Dry Contact and Solid State relays. I have included their specs here as well as for the obsolete 5407.

5415 Dry Contact Relay Version
Contact rating:

• 3 A, 30 Vdc or 250 Vac (Resistive)
• 1000 Vac between open contacts
• 12 A maximum per common

Switching Capacity:

• 5 A, 30 Vdc (150 W Resistive)
• 5 A X 250 Vac (1250 VA Resistive)

Service Life:

• 2 X 107 mechanical
• 1 X 105 at 5 A, 30 Vdc or 250 Vac

Bounce Time: 1 ms typical

5415 DC Solid State Relay Version
Load voltage: 60 Vdc maximum
Load current:

• 3 A continuous maximum at 50ºC (122ºF) ambient
• 2 A continuous maximum at 70ºC (158ºF) ambient
• 9 A peak, 100ms
• UL508 rated 2 A at 50 ºC and 1.33A at 70 ºC (158 ºF.)

On resistance: 0.09 ohms
Off state leakage current: 10 uA
Service Life: Unlimited
Bounce Time: None

5407
Type

• Sealed mechanical relay
• Form A (normally open) contacts.
• Can be modified for Form B (normally closed) contacts.

Contact Ratings:

• 6 A at 250 VAC resistive loads
• 6 A at 30 VDC resistive loads
• 3 A maximum in Class 1, Div, 2 hazardous locations.

Operating Frequency: 18,000 operations/hour mechanically, 1,800 electrically at rated load
Service Life:

• 1,500,000 operations at 0...250 mA load
• 600,000 operations at 1 A resistive load
• 100,000 operations at 6 A resistive load
• 300,000 operations at 1 A inductive loads with pf =0.4
• 100,000 operations at 3.5 A inductive loads with pf=0.4

Operate Time: 10 ms maximum, 5 ms typical
Release Time: 10 ms maximum, 2 ms typical
Bounce Time: 3 ms typical
Contact Isolation: 1000 VAC
Logic Isolation: 1500 VAC

Regards,

Martin

[BevanWeiss]

The internal part numbers would not be guaranteed for either the old or the new IO modules.

These may vary from time to time, hence only the final product specifications would be guaranteed.

You'd likely find that the 5415 relays will have a faster response than listed, and may indeed be identical internal relays to the 5407.  But you shouldn't rely on this information, and Schneider could change the relays used in the 5415 with some that work slower (as long as they are still within the published specifications).