PowerChute and Hyper-V

[Anonymous user]

Hello,

My company recently purchased two servers, a disk array, and a rack with a UPS from Dell. The UPS is an APC Smart-UPS unit. One server is running Server 2008 Standard and the other Datacenter. Both are running Hyper-V.

When I attempt to install the Business Edition software it says "This version of PowerChute Business Edition does not support Hyper-V." I thought I got the latest version, 8.0.1.

What version do I need to download from the web site to manage the UPS?

Thanks.

[BillP]

Business Edition does not support any type of virtualization. APC will have powerchute network shutdown for Hyper-V available shortly which will need to be used in conjunction with a network management card. it relies on a network connection rather than a physical USB or serial connection like business edition.

The following is stated in the PCBE compatibility chart: PowerChute Business Edition does not support virtualised platforms and applications. Please refer to PowerChute Network Shutdown Compatability Chart for Virtualization support.

PCBE doesnt let you install it with hyper-v for fear that it may cause a problem with the virtual servers not shutting down when relying on a physical connection to the UPS.

[Taomyn_apc]

I've just hit this issue after upgrading my server from 2008 w/oHyper-V to 2008 R2 with Hyper-V then lost the ability to monitor my UPS. WTF!!

Hyper-V is no different to any other role/application you can install on a server, be it, IIS, Exchange, SQL and these can be shut down cleanly in various different ways by competent admins. Perhaps APC need to hire a few of these.

Microsoft's own if rather limited UPS monitoring has no issues so why should APC software. By all means warn us during the installation, but let us make the decision ourselves.

How do I unblock the software?

[Anonymous user]

We've had a couple of Hyper-V Server 2008 servers in production and I did notice that v8.01 indicated that it did not support Hyper-V when we tried installing. However, the previous version, v8.00 did work without any error messages and our servers have been in production for almost six months. I wonder why APC decided to stop supporting Hyper-V with the latest version especially when the older version worked without problems.

Note that you'll need to set Hyper-V to shutdown or save the virtual servers and also set PowerChute to give Hyper-V enough time to process the shutdows before it's shutdown. It's worked perfectly for us.

[BillP]

i believe the reasoning was a combination of the following:

-as you noted, Hyper-V needs enough time to gracefully shutdown the servers and you may find out the hard way that you need to do that while using powerchute business edition.

-powerchute network shutdown will be available for systems running Hyper-V in the coming future

[Anonymous user]

Does APC know when the 'coming future' will be for Hyper-V support?

[BillP]

don't quote me on this but i want to say a month or two from today..

[Anonymous user]

Hey there are you able to email me at mgoodyear@newfoundlandpower.com to let me know what steps you did to get version 8 to work properly. I am waiting for the Hyper-V version to come out but if 8.0 works I will try that. Although I am not sure if I have the source files for 8 around anymore.

Thanks

Melvin

[Anonymous user]

APC have now added a version of Powerchute Network Shutdown for Hyper-V to their web site at a cost of £79.99 which should work with their Network Management card for the UPS at a cost of £150. The only problem is that when you go to download the software it puts up a message " One or more requested products are not available for direct purchase from APC. ". I have opened an incident with the APC Customer Solutions Team and hope to hear from them shortly. I will post the reply when I get it.

[BillP]

It seems APC do not understand the concepts of virtualisation, nor the semantics and grammar of the English Language either.

A server running Hyper-V is a "virtualising" platform, not a virtualisation platform, and Hyper-V has little or no impact on the operation of a UPS.

A virtual machine is a virtualisation platform, and has no need of a UPS per see but may like to shutdown cleanly.

We have here the do-er and the do-ee issue.

Use version 8.0.0, it works well, there are good vbscripts and powershell scripts to do clean fast controlled shutdown. Use 8.0.1 on other servers, but not ones with Hyper-v

see here [http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archive/2008/01/30/shutting-down-a-hyper-v-virtual-machine.aspx]

Please always note, that command files run by the "Powerchute agent" run in a different user context. They may work brilliantly at the command prompt and shutdown the planet, but will do nothing on any other machine if run as "local system" or similar as they will not have the credibility to shutdown remote machines.

[BillP]

hi

just to clear up a couple of things, powerchute network shutdown's main concern is to shutdown the physical machine's operating system gracefully. this means that if you have Windows Sever 2008 (host OS) installed with Hyper-V, powerchute network shutdown will only gracefully shutdown Windows Server 2008. If you have virtual (guest) operating systems, you will need to make sure those get shutdown gracefully via some other method since powerchute cannot command them to shutdown since it will only shut down Windows Server 2008.

powerchute business edition does not support installation on any type of server where VMWare or Hyper-V is installed because we have specialized versions of powerchute network shutdown available for them. the theory is that you do not want to install business edition, which relies on a physical (USB or serial) connection to the server and then the guest operating systems will crash if the Windows Server 2008 or other server operating system shuts down.

[Anonymous user]

quite right, we have the guest machines configured to shutdown when the host node get the shutdown command from powerchute. The knack is to configure powerchute to keep the ups up long enough for the guest machines then the host to shutdown, which can vary.

To update you on the incident I opened with APC on 8 June 09, they replied that the Hyper-V version of Powerchute Network Shutdown had to be ordered via a reseller, my reseller eventually found someone who could supply the package but couldn't give me an ETA. It's still on backorder.

The APC support also pointed me to a link to download Powerchute Business Edition v8.00 which does indeed install on Win2008 with Hyper-V, so that is what I'm using as an interim solution, not the most elegant but the best of a bad job. Although I have done a pull the plug test and my host did shutdown the VMs and itself before the UPS was switched off, my confidence in this is fragile as shutdown times vary.

[BillP]

I would encourage APC's people to re-evaluate the positioning of PowerChute. I work for a consulting company that works with really small businesses, most of the time less than 10 employees. We rarely put in a server now that doesn't run Hyper-V, even the smallest businesses are finding a need to run separate OSes for their applications, and Hyper-V is the way to do it. APC has the perogative to charge whatever they want for PowerChute Network Shutdown for Hyper-V, but we will now be reselling product from another vendor. "Enterprise Level" businesses may not notice the extra money, but our customers do. If you add the cost of network management card that needs to be added as well, APC is no longer price competitive. I'm glad I found this thread before making another sale of APC.

[Taomyn_apc]

Or take a look at this: http://www.apcupsd.org/

Just installed and it seems to work, though I haven't delved too deeply as yet. It may seem basic at first, but hopefully this means I can be cleverer with any scripting.

My next UPS purchase will unlikely be APC unless they reverse this change.

[Anonymous user]

"The APC support also pointed me to a link to download Powerchute Business Edition v8.00 which does indeed install on Win2008"

Gadz, - any chance of sharing this link? - I find myself in exactly the same position, I need to get hold of PBE 8.00. - I just need APC to take care of shutting down the host server, I'll take care of ensuring that the guest machines are shutdown gracefully as part of that process... - In fact the guests under VMware already all suspend / resume quite happily when I shutdown/restart the host, so I don't ever need to actually do anything to expliucitly shutdown the guests....

And anyway, isn't this MY risk to take and MY choice to make?.... - ARE YOU LISTENING APC????

TIA

Paul G.

[dslee_apc]

What APC doesn't seem to grasp is the fact that we DON'T NEED APC to TELL US HOW to MANAGE OUR SERVERS.

APC has decided to play 'big brother' essentially telling IT people that we don't know how to use scissors, so they're not going to let us use them.

Very condescending. One more nail in the coffin.

[Anonymous user]

Here is the link I was given, it is not a product supported by apc:

http://www.apcc.com/tools/download/software_comp.cfm?sw_sku=SFPCBE800

A cautionary note, we had our first blackout in 2 years just after installing pcbe8.00, maybe I didn't get the timing right but it didn't really perform as expected and the ups switched off before the host node was fully down, it was only intended as an interim solution whilst waiting for a version of PCNS that supported Hyper-V.

I have now gone down the AP9617 management card and PC Network Shutdown (PCNS) package route, though I had/still having some fun there as they occasionally stop talking to each other and as there is no messaging facility within windows 2008 PCNS can't tell me when it's lost contact with the UPS! Can't understand why APC haven't put an emailing facility within PCNS like they have with the software on the management card.

Like many I'm not that impressed with APC's attitude to server power protection at the moment, they seem to see Powerchute as an income stream not a utility to support their UPS offering, and then don't develop it (PCNS that is) to keep up with the latest Windows server operating systems. I for one will be wary about recommending APC to future customers.

ps: I've yet to do a full blackout test on the AP9617/PCNS combo, it's on the list but Hyper-V in an iSCSI environment presents other more urgent challenges

Message was edited by: gadz

[BillP]

APC offers different levels for shutdown software each with a specific user in mind and based on the operating system these users would be implementing. The first would be the personal computer user or single system implementation to which we offer PowerChute Personal Edition. The second would be for small to medium business users and single rack data center implementation to which we offer PowerChute Business Edition and PowerChute Network Shutdown. The third would be enterprise users to which we offer PowerChute Network Shutdown.
Windows Server Hyper V is considered an enterprise level operating system so we have created PowerChute Network Shutdown for Windows Server Hyper V.

PowerChute Network Shutdown version 2.2.3 for Hyper-V is available for download on the APC web site to users in the UK. The part number is SEPCNSHV.

Regards,E

[Anonymous user]

wpasquil, you obviously haven't read this thread, as if you had you would have realised that the PCNS product you quote was NOT available when this discussion started and some of us had the problems THEN. You appear to be just regurgitating apc marketing bluff.

If you want to be really useful, tell me a away that I can have the PCNS software message or email me (or some other form of notification) that it has lost contact with the AP9617 Management Card, 'cos when they lose contact the graceful shutdown doesn't function and my system is exposed. I current have a UPS self test every seven days which confirms they are still talking, though a more frequent test, say everyday would be more helpful but a realtime notification to me is the minimum requirement.

[dslee_apc]

APC, go talk to an IT guy who doesn't own shares in Schneider to get a real clue, and then post something back here that respects the intelligence of the people posting here.

"Windows Server Hyper V is considered an enterprise level operating system..."

Lesson #1: "Windows Server 2008" is an operating system. "Hyper-V" is a ROLE that runs ON the server.

Lesson #2: "Microsoft Hyper-V Server 2008" is a scaled-down GUI-less operating system that runs Hyper-V without the base Windows Server O/S - perhaps this is where APC is confused?

"Windows Server Hyper V is considered an enterprise level operating system..."

See the above lessons. The Hyper-V role is also now pre-installed with Server 2008 SP2. Say it with me: Hyper-V is a ROLE, not an O/S. This ROLE can be used on Server 2008 Standard, Enterprise OR Datacenter. Hyper-V is NOT an 'enterprise O/S'.

On top of this, Hyper-V and virtualization already runs my small business, as well as my most recent client (under 15 users), and I expect ALL of my clients will be running under virtualization within the next 2 years as their servers get replaced.

This decision by APC smacks of a few of executives getting together in a room and tearing to shreds a bunch of ideas on how to generate more revenue, and this was all that was left at the end of the meeting, so it MUST have been a good idea, right?

How wrong you are.

[Anonymous user]

All,

I totally agree with the ridiculous situation that you cannot install PCNS onto a hyper-v system; as has already been stated, it's a blatant attempt to get more money from their userbase, and a very partronising way to treat them at the same time.

However, there is a simple solution to this; simply find/download/buy and install a previous version... I recently purchased a new AP9617 card off eBay and it came with a CD with version 220 of PCNS on it... Worked a treat on Server2008 w. Hyper-V.

I've saved myself £80 and now have control over my servers the way I want...

Chris

[timb2010_apc]

We currently have 8 x 2008 R2 Hyper-V hosts. Two are full installs and 6 are CORE installs.

It looks like I will have to buy the new "Hyper-V" version for each server as i cannot install 2.2.3 on a core, and I cannot install 2.2.4 on Hyper-v enabled box.

I Dont think I will be purchasing APC ups`s again, when you add up the price of the UPS, network managed card and then also additional per server licence for each Hyper-V server, they are probably not the best option out there.

Shame

Could we please have a comment from a UPS business employee on this move ??

[Anonymous user]

I can only agree with previous comments. APC doesn’t know anything about the applications and workloads running on the servers – so why check specifically for Hyper-V? Virtualization has become a commodity and we had to find a way to work around this problem created by APC for our clients – either recommending a different UPS vendor or by use of alternate software (one of them was mentioned earlier in this thread) to control APC boxes. Good luck with this business strategy – my company is not going to support it.

[scerazy_apc]

Older 2.2.3 version installs fine on Hyper-V enabled Server 2008 R2

Then only a little script to be executed by PC on shutdown & all works fine, no need to pay for anything

Seb

[BillP]

I apologize; I miss-spoke. I understand Hyper-V run on Windows Server 2008. I have seen Hyper-V described as "Microsoft Hyper-V Server 2008" which is a variant of Window Server 2008 "Core" that includes full Hyper-V functionality”. Hyper-V will not run with out Windows Server 2008 so calling it an OS is a mischaracterization on my part.

Regards,E

[dslee_apc]

You are 1/2 right - per my post, there IS an O/S flavor Microsoft calls Microsoft Hyper-V Server, but they purposely left out the word 'Windows', since as you say, it is GUI-less, and they were attempting to reduce the confusion (while increasing it at the same time). This IS a place where the network product could come in handy (though I prefer to use a full Windows O/S with the Hyper-V role).

Apologies for the tenor of my posts, but I really am flabbergasted at the ignorance of APC's position on this topic. The 'right' thing to do is bypass the Hyper-V installation block when installing on a physical machine. APC is crossing a line by dictating what I can run on my servers, period. There's simply no justification for it.

Sell the network product on its merits - I'm sure there will be many people who will appreciate the benefits of having a 3rd party take care of gracefully shutting down their VM's before the host machine shuts down, but forcing the issue will do nothing for the product or the brand, except tarnish it.

[jrm523_apc]

APC is always higher on price than most and the quality of product is not better. This is just one more thing that will influence the decision of our IT company about what brand of ups we purchase. We have always purchased APC but with the recent failure of a PDU and with their prices high this is affecting our decision.

[Anonymous user]

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[BillP]

scerazy,

Can you please describe a little more how this can be accomplished and what is needed?

We are running windows SBS 2011 VM on windows 2008 R2 Hyper-V host.

We do have Smart-UPS 1000 in place. Our client is a small company and doesn't have extra money to spend for purchasing PowerChute Network Shutdown for Hyper-V - Single Physical and network card for APC.

Basically what we need is only to gracefully shut down our host OS. VM will be paused automatically once host hyper-v os is initiates shutdown.

I know that PowerChute Business Edition 8.0.0 can be installed on Windows 2008 host os but it doesn't work on windows 2008 R2 😞

Any advice will be appreciated!

Thank you
Viktor

[BillP · Accepted solution]

Any updates in regard to this matter?