After UPS test, PowerChute no longer sees it

[mlewis_apc]

I put a load on a couple of DL3000RM3U, then ran a generator test. Everything went well but soon after, PowerChute no longer sees the UPS? I've rebooted the XP server that PC is running on and still get the same error, NO UPS FOUND, Check Cable. I have, all looks fine.

What's going on?

Mike

[mlewis_apc]

from your other thread you state that you have four UPSs and just need to monitor them. you do >NOT need to have graceful shutdown. just throwing something out there - is there ever a chance >the generator wont be there, thus you will want stuff to shutdown gracefully?

It's a give and take, I just can't cover all of the bases just yet. Eventually, maybe I can have a large battery bank again or secondary generator, something. My main need is to keep things running. I do have an 8 port extender which I was thinking of using to shut some of the machines down based on some critical settings. I don't have agents and didn't realize **everything** was an option when I decided to suggest APC. Maybe I can find some open source solutions to help me with these things.

if not, then you dont even need these interface expanders. they are only there so that you can >shutdown multiple servers on each UPS via serial cables since the UPS only normally has 1 serial >port.

Ok, so you mean the two port expansion on the UPS itself? I only have the two port expander on one UPS, not the rest. So, the two port expander for example, would connect to either two servers or to my 8-port expansion box, right?

what you should be doing is just directly connecting one computer directly to the serial port on the >each UPS with the 940-0024 or 940-1524 cable. then, you can install the powerchute business

I ordered four of the 940-0020B cables yesterday. So, I'll plug those into 4 win servers for example, then install powerchute on each. Looks like I only have powerchute Plus 5.1 it turns out. So now I would also need powerchute business edition?

once the software is installed on the four machines directly connected, you could access each via >a web interface at http://127.0.0.1:3052 or using the IP on port 3052. but yeah, thats a pain in the >butt.

It's not the end of the world though :). Mind you, looks like the plus version doesn't have a web servre built in.

SO..once you have those four agents, you can pick a computer to install the server portion of >business edition as well as the console portion. as mentioned before, the agents are monitoring >each of the four UPSs from those four computers. when you install the server, you tell it to monitor >all those agents, and then installing the console will let you see up to FIVE agents from one nice >little window (with PCBE basic edition).

Ok, so I would need a version of business edition with at least 4 agents. Then one win server could see the other agents through the single powerchute business edition installation.

on all of them. by hooking one computer to the UPS directly in the way I mentioned above, that >computer will have graceful shutdown just because thats what the software does but you will also >be able to monitor the UPS for voltages, etc and set up any notifications you want.

Yes, I think I've got this. Well, all ecept the business edition I guess :).

Related question, or perhaps best as a new thread?

The UPS have multiple rows of sockets. Does any of the software show how things are loaded across the batteries on the UPS? The powerchute seems to only show the total load, it doesn't show how the loads are distributed across the sockets. In my case, I'll be using PDU's without meters built in.

Mike

[BillP]

you shouldnt need to restart the UPS, only the software on the computer.

the basic version you installed will monitor 5 agents for free as you thought. there is no license that you have to put in or anything.

[mlewis_apc]

It's a great offer but, I don't know how I could take the UPS down? Can I provide you with additional information about it perhaps? Physically removing it is going to be a nightmare.

[mlewis_apc]

I'll have to restart the UPS, it just won't be seen.

The version I downloaded, is there licensing to buy? I thought I saw somewhere that 5 agents come at no cost with it?

Mike

[BillP]

hi mike,

so just to confirm, nobody has touched the serial cable? it should be the 940-0024 or 940-1524 for the 15 foot version? nobody plugged in any random accessories to the smart slot, correct?

have to checked the event log in powerchute for any other information? maybe any other events before a lost communication event?

you are using powerchute business edition? the easiest thing to do would be to braindead the UPS to help alleviate any communication problems. this requires turning off the UPS so it'd have to be done when you have some downtime..

to do this:

Turn off the attached load to the UPS.
Turn off the actual UPS. Unplug it from the wall.
Remove the serial cable and power cables.
With nothing attached to the UPS and it unplugged from the wall, hold down the off button (o) for up to 10 seconds and wait for an audible click and the UPS LEDs to flash.

You can then reconnect everything and turn the UPS on. Then, on the server, go to control panel -> administrative tools and find the APC PBE Agent service and restart it.

that procedure resets the UPS circuitry so it could fix any communication problems that may have come up as long as you checked the phyiscal connection.

[BillP]

actually from your last thread, you are using an interface expander. so if this particular server is connected to a basic port, it should be using the *940-0020B* cable. advanced port would use the 940-0024 also, the agent portion of the software (which I explain in the other thread) should have been installed in the "simple with interface expander" mode if this is using that cable mentioned above.

[mlewis_apc]

It's near midnight so my brain isn't working well. I'll have to re-read the replies tomorrow. What ever cable I was using didn't change. The connection simply stopped working after the generator test. Actually, I think it stopped during the generator test and has not come back since.

I've rebooted the win server, I've turned off the UPS, restarted it, just won't see it anymore. I'll have to look at the cable model tomorrow. The cable is plugged into the UPS and not into the expansion slot.

Mike

[mlewis_apc]

actually from your last thread, you are using an interface expander. so if this particular server is >connected to a basic port, it should be using the 940-0020B cable. advanced port would use the >940-0024 also, the agent portion of the software (which I explain in the other thread) should have been >installed in the "simple with interface expander" mode if this is using that cable mentioned above.

Alright, back at this.
The cable I had between the UPS serial port and PC is 124102018-001. This one worked until the UPS got power from the generator. Since then, powerchute no longer can see the UPS.

The long cables I have are 940-1524C. I'm pretty sure I have more but I have to find them.

Mike

[BillP]

alright. yeah we will need to get a breakdown of this configuration. if you have the expansion chassis plugged into this, then that should plug into the UPS and then you should only big hooking up to the 8 port expansion chassis..so let me know when you can let me know how exactly this is hooked up so we can go from there 🙂

[BillP]

was that long part number engraved on the connector?

all APC's serial cables usually start with 940-xxxx. you cannot use any other serial cable because these have special pinouts.

what you should have is the expansion chassis plugged into the UPS serial port. from there, you have one server connected via 940-0024 or 940-1524 connected to the "advanced port" that you can use to make changes on the UPS. this computer will also shutdown gracefully. you need to install powerchute business edition agent at a minimum and choose "smart signaling" when installing.

for the remaining "basic" ports, you need to use 940-0020B if they are windows machines. linux uses 940-0023 cable i believe. these are "simple signaling" (versus smart signaling) cables and have different pinouts. you need to install powerchute in simple signaling with interface expander mode. these servers can only receive the "low battery" signal from the UPS and thats all. they cannot send commands to the UPS on the basic port. only the computer on the advanced port can do that.

any "agent" installation can be accessed via http://127.0.0.1:3052 or http://:3052 to make sure that communication is working.

hope this helps!

[mlewis_apc]

was that long part number engraved on the connector?

I don't think it was an APC cable then. I used it because it said UPS on one end, and PC on the other end, just figured it was one of my APC cables. It worked, at least until I used the generator on the UPS.

what you should have is the expansion chassis plugged into the UPS serial port. from there, you >have one server connected via 940-0024 or 940-1524 connected to the "advanced port" that you >can use to make changes on the UPS. this computer will also shutdown gracefully. you need to >install powerchute business edition agent at a minimum and choose "smart signaling" when >installing.

I thought about this earlier and it defeats the purpose of having non stop redundant power, to actually shut the servers down so agents don't seem that important to me. What is important is being able to quickly glance at the individual 3000 units to get a status. Or, even better, a unit which would allow me to connect each of them into it so that I could monitor all of the units from one interface rather than having to switch between them. Obviously, not a very big deal if I have to switch, it's more convenience, certainly not worth hundreds of dollars.

different pinouts. you need to install powerchute in simple signaling with interface expander mode.

So here's what I was also wondering about today. It seems that powerchute can see other servers, does this mean that I could run powerchute on other machines and just switch between servers on any given machine to see all of the other UPS devices?

Mike

[BillP]

ok,

from your other thread you state that you have four UPSs and just need to monitor them. you do NOT need to have graceful shutdown. just throwing something out there - is there ever a chance the generator wont be there, thus you will want stuff to shutdown gracefully?

if not, then you dont even need these interface expanders. they are only there so that you can shutdown multiple servers on each UPS via serial cables since the UPS only normally has 1 serial port.

what you should be doing is just directly connecting one computer directly to the serial port on the each UPS with the 940-0024 or 940-1524 cable. then, you can install the powerchute business edition agent on these four computers that are directly connected to each UPS and install the software in smart signaling mode. once the software is installed on the four machines directly connected, you could access each via a web interface at http://127.0.0.1:3052 or using the IP on port 3052. but yeah, thats a pain in the butt. SO..once you have those four agents, you can pick a computer to install the server portion of business edition as well as the console portion. as mentioned before, the agents are monitoring each of the four UPSs from those four computers. when you install the server, you tell it to monitor all those agents, and then installing the console will let you see up to FIVE agents from one nice little window (with PCBE basic edition).

just because you may have say, 6 servers, connected to one UPS for power, doesnt mean that you need to have them hooked up serially to the UPS. you'd only do that if you need graceful shutdown on all of them. by hooking one computer to the UPS directly in the way I mentioned above, that computer will have graceful shutdown just because thats what the software does but you will also be able to monitor the UPS for voltages, etc and set up any notifications you want.

i hope this makes sense.

[BillP]

well to get started:

here is a link to powerchute business edition just incase you need it again:

http://www.apcc.com/tools/download/software_comp.cfm?sw_sku=SFPCBE705&id=125&family=&part_num=&swfam...

i'll reply in bold.


Ok, so you mean the two port expansion on the UPS itself? I only have the two port expander on one UPS, not the rest. So, the two port expander for example, would connect to either two servers or to my 8-port expansion box, right?
You cant connect the 8 port expander to the 2 port expander. they are both non-standard accessories. the 8 port can only be directed connected to the serial port on the UPS which is on the chassis of the UPS itself. you shouldnt need to use both the 2 port and the 8 port. it should be one or the other. again, this is only needed for graceful shutdown - either of the port expanders that is. it is not needed to monitor the UPS from a computer.

I ordered four of the 940-0020B cables yesterday. So, I'll plug those into 4 win servers for example, then install powerchute on each. Looks like I only have powerchute Plus 5.1 it turns out. So now I would also need powerchute business edition?
These can only be used if you are deciding to user the basic ports on either the 8 port expander or the 2 port expander. For the four machines that we are going to set up to fully monitor the UPSs, you need the 940-0024 or 940-1524 (15 ft version). these are also the cables, that you'd plug into the 8 port interface expander's "advanced port" or the port on the UPS if you use the 2 port expander that goes into the smart slot. so, to me, it sounds like you got the wrong cables because those wont work if you just connect one computer to the UPS. those cables are only for simple signaling, which is used with the expanders. the UPS can only tell the computers when it has a low battery through those cables. the other cables ending in 24 have a different pinout and allow for communication both ways from UPS to computer or computer to UPS (such as adjusting settings). i posted a link above to powerchute business edition.


The UPS have multiple rows of sockets. Does any of the software show how things are loaded across the batteries on the UPS? The powerchute seems to only show the total load, it doesn't show how the loads are distributed across the sockets. In my case, I'll be using PDU's without meters built in.
You are coorect. The software only shows the total load of the UPS in a percentage. it cant tell you how much each receptable or bank of receptacles is drawing. the metered PDU can tell you how much that particular PDU is drawing so thats all you'll be able to tell.

[mlewis_apc]

Ok, so I ordered all these cables for nothing. Guess I'll be selling them since they were already shipped.

the chassis of the UPS itself. you shouldnt need to use both the 2 port and the 8 port. it should be >one or the other. again, this is only needed for graceful shutdown - either of the port expanders that >is. it is not needed to monitor the UPS from a computer.

Ok, so let's forget about the module I have in the one UPS. Let's say they all have the standard port only. Are you saying that I could connect each UPS into the port expander and the port expander into one server running powerchute? I'm sure you're not saying that, just getting a bit confused since I'm doing this part time as I fight with a heck of a lot of other things unrelated right now.

These can only be used if you are deciding to user the basic ports on either the 8 port expander or >the 2 port expander. For the four machines that we are going to set up to fully monitor the UPSs, >you need the 940-0024 or 940-1524 (15 ft version). these are also the cables, that you'd plug into >the 8 port interface expander's "advanced port" or the port on the UPS

It sounds like you're saying that I've got what I need then? I have 4 of the 940-1524 cables if I recall.

I'm going to have to review this thread and make some notes soon unless I've got it right, which would be way cool.

Mike

[BillP]

hi mike

with only the standard port, you hook a 940-1524 cable to one computer and install powerchute business edition agent on that computer. with only one computer used for monitoring, there is no need for the interface expander so forget about that. just plug the serial cable from the computer, directly to the single serial port that is on the UPS all by itself.

yes it sounds like you have what you need to get this up and running. those other cables are only if you need to use the interface expander and have multiple computers shutdown during an outage.

[mlewis_apc]

with only the standard port, you hook a 940-1524 cable to one computer and install powerchute >business edition agent on that computer. with only one computer used for monitoring

Right, so we're back to talking about installing an agent on each win server which has a UPS connected to it, then using one of those servers to run powerchute to monitor them all.

there is no need for the interface expander so forget about that. just plug the serial cable from the >computer, directly to the single serial port that is on the UPS all by itself.

It sounded like you were saying that I could connect all four UPS to the 8 port expander, then plug that into a win server and be able to monitor them all. That sounded very sweet.

yes it sounds like you have what you need to get this up and running. those other cables are only if >you need to use the interface expander and have multiple computers shutdown during an outage.

Right. The link you sent me to, is that a demo of the software? I didn't get the chance to sign up yet and was about to buy it from someone else.

Mike

[mlewis_apc]

I have business edition basic installed, not seeing any UPS however. I used the 940-1525 cable from serial to basic port on the UPS. I've not yet fully restarted the UPS however, might this be why it cannot be seen or am I missing something still?

[BillP]

yes, that is the correct cable. as long as its plugged into the UPS directly, NOT one of the extra serial ports that have been added but an interface expander.

[see this link for a picture|http://www.apcmedia.com/resource/images/500/Back/C5D45BA3-5056-9170-D38B529ABC6A8999_pr.jpg]

i believe that is what the back of your UPS looks like. you want to be plugging it into that serial port pictured on there in the middle bottom of the UPS.

is that where you are plugging it? if so, log into the agent software, click on Protected System ->System settings and tell me what you have for signaling type - should be Smart, and then make sure you have the correct com port. anytime you make setting changes in this section, you need to stop and restart the APC PBE Agent service in the registered services on your machine.

[mlewis_apc]

Thanks for all of the input. Everything seems to be working just fine. I still have to test the load 100% on the UPS devices being powered by the generator but it seems it'll all work. I'll continue this thread when I know more.

Thanks again.

Mike

[mlewis_apc]

Can someone confirm if the SUA3000RMT2U or SU3000RM3U would also work with my generator? In this thread, I mention that my DL3000RM3U units do work so long as I set their sensitivity switch to medium. Does this other model have the same switch and might work?

Are there any others that might, older perhaps, not necessarily the RT I think they are, models.

Mike

Message was edited by: mlewis

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

Mike,


All Smart-UPS have adjustable sensitivity, so those other UPS should work. So long as the generator is sized properly.

[mlewis_apc]

When you say sized properly, you just mean the total amount of amperage I need for the multiple UPS's right.

Mike

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

Hi Mike,

When I state the information about the generator being properly sized, I mean that the generator is at least 1.5 times the entire load, in kW, which includes UPS's and non UPS load. This should allow for optimal output of the generator sine wave, with as little distortion as possible. It may have to be fine tuned.

[mlewis_apc]

The testing I had done was to fire up two of them and run them on the generator. I had to set both to medium then they synced up to the source just fine.

Are you thinking that with four units, I'll have to use max sensitivity? And if I do that, will the UPS protect my loads less since it's not going to be as sensitive?

Mike

[mlewis_apc]

The generator is a 12Kw Generac. I've tuned it as best I can to get the cleanest output I can get. I am hoping to power 4 of the Smart-UPS devices, each with about 1/4 to 1/2 load. That's the hope.

Mike

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

So to make sure my math is correct

Total size of generator: 12kW
Each UPS: 3kVA
Number of UPS's powered by Generator: 4
Total UPS kVA load: 12kVA

Each UPS only 50% loaded, brings the kVA capacity down to 6kVA, which after including the power factor should be around 4500/5kW.

Should work, so long as all of them are set to low sensitivity.

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

You'll have to set it to Low with 4 of them.

The UPS will still clean up the sine wave the best it can, but it's possible that some harmonics, none of which can be damaging or the UPS would transfer to battery, can reach the load.

[mlewis_apc]

I read that when you have more load on the generator that it can actually help clean it's output because it can't fluctuate as heavily.

So, even if I put them all to low, they will still protect the load properly. I wondered if setting them to low sensitivity meant that it would take heavy power fluctuations to make them go to battery.

In other words, I wondered if that meant that either the UPS or the loads would be more susceptible to dirty power. But you're telling me that's not the case and that will not happen.

Out of curiosity, how do you come to determine that I should put all four on low? My testing showed that two units could not sync on high sensitivity but on medium they did. How would this change when I add two more?

Mike

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

Mike,

The information we've found is that the closer to full capacity, the more distorted the power due to backfeed from other devices, as well as a requirement of almost full power to support the load - thus meaning the generator can output any type of wave, so long as it is within spec. You could certainly run a fully loaded generator with 4 UPS's, so long as you completely fine tune the output. But even then, we can't guarantee anything.

[mlewis_apc]

What exactly do you mean by fine tune? I can tune the Hz and the voltage output on the generator.

By the way, just ran another test with only the two units on the geny so far, all went well but, Powerchute no longer can see the UPS again. The last time, the only way I was able to get it to see it again was to shut it down, turn it off, unplug it, then all back on.

Mike

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

IDK what's going on with the UPS software, I'll let Angela continue to troubleshoot that upon her return Monday.

As far as what I mean by "fine tuning", an electrician (so I've been told. You'll have to excuse the fact that I've never done this and simply gone off of what customers have stated) can adjust or place some type of mechanism on the output of the generator to limit the harmonics created by the generator. That would allow for it to be "fine tuned" to a sine wave that would be acceptable to the lowest UPS requirement of Low Sensitivity.

[mlewis_apc]

No problem, if anything, I'm giving you more feedback as well based on the tests I'm doing. I'm going to move some things around and do a test on all four units either this or next week.

The one thing I'd like to get worked out is why Powerchute can't see the UPS won't it's been on the generator. I need to be able to see what's going on after a power event, loads, etc.

As for cleaning the output, the only thing I know are AC filters which cost thousands of dollars. At least, so far, it's all I've found. For the cost of doing that, I could just swap out the generator for a much larger, better unit :).

Mike

Message was edited by: mlewis

[mlewis_apc]

Sorry for the delay, have not been able to run that test yet. I'll update this thread once I have.

[mlewis_apc]

Weird, I thought I updated this yesterday?

Anyhow, have not had the chance to test 4 devices yet, third one on order was ruined in shipping, waiting on replacement.

Still can't understand why I need to restart one of the devices once it's been on it's batteries in order for powerchute to see it.

New problem, UPS reporting that I need to change it's batteries but they were replaced new in 2005 and the machine has barely been used since.

Mike

[BillP]

hi mike-

regarding the new problem - is powerchute reporting that the battery needs to be replaced or is the replace battery LED lit on the smart ups itself? if its the powerchute software, i think it will start popping up 3 years after the battery replacement date since the batteries should be replaced every 3-5 years. if it is the unit telling you by illuminating the replace battery LED, then even though its not been used that much, it still could need to be replaced since it has a reduced capacity because of the environment its in or maybe a couple of other factors.

on the other problem, i kind of forgot what was going on since it was a little while ago :[ are we still talking about after the use of the generator?

[mlewis_apc]

Yes, the LED is red on the unit itself. And it's been about three years, though they have only been in use for about 1 1/2 years since.

As for the other problem, it's that when the UPS goes to batteries/generator, powershute can no longer see it. It takes a complete power off of the UPS so that it can be seen again.

Mike

[BillP]

ok - so we know we need some replacement batteries.

also, forgive me, but i forgot the initial issue since its been so long.

these are the machines that are on the interface expander on the basic ports? are the servers turning off and you are manually turning them back on after a graceful shutdown..?

[mlewis_apc]

these are the machines that are on the interface expander on the basic ports? are the >servers turning off and you are manually turning them back on after a graceful shutdown..?

The machines are on the standard interface on the UPS's. I'm not using the expander port, even though it's installed on one of the UPS's.

There is no shutdown since the generator kicks in but when they go on batteries or generator, then powershute loses connectivity with at least one of them.

Mike

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

Hey Mike,

I'm gonna speak with Angela on Monday when I get into the office. I'm thinking this shouldn't be taking almost 2 months to provide you a resolution. What's going on is fishy to say the least. What I'd like to do, if you're willing/capable to do so, is for us to get one of those UPS's back to us so we can run some diags on it in our lab, and possibly, include some of our Smart-UPS folks as well to provide their input. If we see a problem, we can go ahead and replace them. If we don't, we can tell you what we found out, how we accomplished it, and what the next steps would be.

[mlewis_apc · Accepted solution]

By the way, I have the four machines up and installed now. I've not run the generator test but will as soon as I install powerchute on the servers so I can see how things go.

I'll report my findings.

Mike