Universal Transfer Switch ( UTS10BI ) doesn't turn on when on generator

[Anonymous user]

I have just installed (actually an electrician just installed) the UTS10BI and went through the setup of the 'System' and each Circuit. Seems to be working fine when on Utility power. I just tried testing it today with a gas powered Honda home use generator (model EM5000SXK2A 5000W) and the UTS would not turn on when operating via the generator.

For the 'test run' I started the generator and let it run for 5-10 minutes, turned the main breaker of my house's circuit breaker panel off, connected the generator to a genrac inlet box and nothing. The UTS box powered off when I shut off the main circuit breaker and when I connected the generator, nothing happened, no lights on the UTS and no power to the UTS circuits.

Using a volt meter I checked the power from the generator into the UTS box and was getting a reading of ~260V where the genrac line in was connected and at the BU1 X1 & X3 black and brown wire connectors on the circuit board. I am not using a UPS with this setup.

Hope someone can help point our what may be wrong and that it is a setup issue and not a bad UTS10BI panel.

[Anonymous user]

I have just installed (actually an electrician just installed) the UTS10BI and went through the setup of the 'System' and each Circuit. Seems to be working fine when on Utility power. I just tried testing it today with a gas powered Honda home use generator (model EM5000SXK2A 5000W) and the UTS would not turn on when operating via the generator.

For the 'test run' I started the generator and let it run for 5-10 minutes, turned the main breaker of my house's circuit breaker panel off, connected the generator to a genrac inlet box and nothing. The UTS box powered off when I shut off the main circuit breaker and when I connected the generator, nothing happened, no lights on the UTS and no power to the UTS circuits.

Using a volt meter I checked the power from the generator into the UTS box and was getting a reading of ~260V where the genrac line in was connected and at the BU1 X1 & X3 black and brown wire connectors on the circuit board. I am not using a UPS with this setup.

Hope someone can help point our what may be wrong and that it is a setup issue and not a bad UTS10BI panel.

[BillP]

i would try setting it on generator to begin and do the test if you can. the rest of the settings look alright.

[BillP]

i am going to reference the manual available online here: http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/KBOK-74JRFQ_R1_EN.pdf

can you go to page 17 in the manual (18 on the actual manual) and let me know what you have set for Backup1 Source type? This should be set to generator. Also, please confirm that you have entered the watt rating for the generator appropriately. Lastly, what do you have for the start mode of the generator set to?

[Anonymous user]

Here are the settings you asked for
BACKUP1 SOURCE TYPE = Generator
GEN POWER RATING = 4500
GEN START AUTO/MAN = Manual

The model generator I have is a 5000w model which has a continuous power rating of 4500w.One thing I am curious about is how to answer the BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE question. I do not have a UPS so wasn't sure if I should set it to OTHER or GENERATOR. I thought I read in one of the manuals that there should also be a NONE option but my UTS did not give me that choice.

Thanks for the help.

[Anonymous user]

I will try BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = GENERATOR. I initially had BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = OTHER because I did not have a UPS and, as I mentioned, wasn't sure which was choice was correct. Another reason I didn't try GENERATOR for BACKUP2 was the maximum POWER RATING that could be set for BACKUP2 SOURCE was 1800W. This seemed odd and question whether I should select GENERATOR or OTHER. But, I will give setting BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE to GENERATOR and set POWER RATING to maximum allowed. I'll post results back here.

[BillP]

if you dont have a UPS the UTS could turn off before the generator starts of course but that still doesnt make sense to me why it didnt work on your test since the generator was already on.

i look forward to your results and if that doesnt make anymore sense, i will be able to test it myself.

[Anonymous user]

I tried the test tonight and was unsuccessful. Here are the steps I took
1) changed BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = GENERATOR, BACKUP2 GEN POWER RATING = 1800W (max the setting will allow)
2) started Generator and let warm up for several minutes
3) turned off main circuit breaker to house, everything is now off including the UTS10B1
4) connected cable from Generator to outside Genrac inlet box

Check UTS10BI and nothing, the LCD display and LEDs for the 10 circuits are off. Once again, using a volt meter I can measure 260 volts at the connector on the main circuit board for 'BU1 X1 BLK' and 'BU1 X1 BRN' wires. So I'm really confused as to how this is suppose to work. Does this UTS require a UPS to work? The manuals seem to imply a UPS is optional. One other thing that may be nothing at all but still has me curious is there are two black and brown wires to the circuit board from the connector block where the input from the generator is connected to. The circuit board has spade connectors labeled 'BU1 X1 BLK', 'BU1 X2 BLK' and 'BU1 X3 BLK'. Only BU1 X1 and BU1 X3 have wires connected to them. Is this correct? I've attached a couple of pictures of the circuit board to show this. Appreciate your assistance.

For reference, the System Settings are:
BYPASS MODE = No
LOAD SHEDDING = On
VOLTAGE SENSITIVITY = Medium
TIME MANAGEMENT = On
RESET ENERGY METER = No
SYSTEM TEST = No
BACKUP1 SOURCE TYPE = Generator
GEN POWER RATING = 4500W
GEN SOURCE OVERLOAD = 10 sec
GENSTART AUTO/MAN = Manual
BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = Generator
BACKUP2 POWER = 1800W
GEN (ups) SRGE OVERLD TIME = 10 sec
RESET TO DEFAULT = No
Circuit setup for all circuits has GEN as Circuit source.

[Anonymous user]

MDB80, I too am interested in installing this panel. As you have already installed it I am curious. It appeared to me that when the power plug from the generator is attached to the panel that would provide power to the switch. What function do the brown, red and other larger size wires attached to the board (unless they are factory attached and not the UTS Hardwire Interface Kit which I interpreted to be the kit to get the 240 into the house in which case I would just ran a cable from the generator to the panel input)?

Also, did you see this:

"Note: UTS6/UTS6H - Utilizing all of the UTS circuits is not necessary. However, Circuits 5 and 6 must be
connected to the building circuit panel and must receive power for the UTS to function. Circuits 5 and 6 must
be connected to circuits that are in opposite phases so that 240 V is present across the circuits 5 and 6.

UTS6BI/UTS10BI - Utilizing all of the UTS circuits is not necessary. However, the dedicated 240 V circuits
must be connected to the building circuit panel and must receive power for the UTS to function.

Good luck and keep us all apprised as to your success and how you did it.. Thanks..

[Anonymous user]

speedracer1 wrote
"+MDB80, I too am interested in installing this panel. As you have already installed it I am curious. It appeared to me that when the power plug from the generator is attached to the panel that would provide power to the switch. What function do the brown, red and other larger size wires attached to the board (unless they are factory attached and not the UTS Hardwire Interface Kit which I interpreted to be the kit to get the 240 into the house in which case I would just ran a cable from the generator to the panel input)?+ "

All wires connected to the circuit board are factory installed.In the bottom of the photo named bu1_brn.jpg you can see a black connector block that has, from top to bottom, white, red, and black wires on the right side. These are the wires coming into the UTS from the Gentrac inlet box mounted on the outside of the house. The Gentrac box is where I connect the generator. The larger brown wires in that photo and larger black wires in photo bu1_blk.jpg are supplying power to the circuit board from the generator. The red and yellow wires in those photos are for the individual circuits.I was curious as to why the larger black and brown wires were connected to spades labeled 'BU1 X1' and 'BU1 X3' and not to 'BU1 X2'. Maybe the same circuit board is used for all models of the UTS (UTS10BI and UTS6BI) and 'BUI X2' is for UTS6BI models and not used for the UTS10BI..... this is just a guess on my part.

The ironic part of this is, our power was out Thursday night when I came home from work. I was depressed knowing that my generator was sitting in the garage all ready to go but wouldn't provide power to the house because of this box. My wife convinced me to try anyhow and before I could hook it up the power came back on. Darn! I may have missed a golden opportunity for a 'real' test.

I wish I could figure it out. The User Manual and Site Preparation and Installation manual do not accurately reflect what is seen at the UTS when going through the setup wizard. Some of the questions do not have answers that are listed in the documentation and there are question sin the documentation that I never saw while going through the setup wizard. There are also comments about automatically sensing when utility power is restored to shut off power from the generator which makes me think that a test while utility power is still present won't work.

There is a System Test choice in the System Setup that has a default value of 'No' and when I tried to set it to 'Yes' I was given a invalid choice type response. So what is the purpose of System Test and when do you use it? That is not explained in the documentation.

If my problem can't be resolved soon I will send this box back. The function of this UTS is a great idea but it should not be this difficult to test and troubleshoot.

[Anonymous user]

Sorry you are still having so much trouble. From the wires in our pictures can I/we assume that you removed the generator plug connector on the UTS and have connected the generator cable directly to the UTS and then just plug the other end into the outside connector or the generator directly?? Did you happen to notice the note that the 240 v ckt has to be alive for the UTS to work? Did you try attaching a UPS to the UTS so you would know for a fact that the unit was being 'kept alive' during the outage. Just guessing but hoping one will work for ya..Later..

[Anonymous user]

Sorry you are still having so much trouble. From the wires in our pictures can I/we assume that you removed the generator plug connector on the UTS and have connected the generator cable directly to the UTS and then just plug the other end into the outside connector or the generator directly?? Did you happen to notice the note that the 240 v ckt has to be alive for the UTS to work? Did you try attaching a UPS to the UTS so you would know for a fact that the unit was being 'kept alive' during the outage. Just guessing but hoping one will work for ya..Later..

You are correct, the generator plug connector that came with the UTS was not used and the Generator is connected directly to the UTS via a Gentrac inlet box that is mounted on the outside of the house. There is a cable that goes from the generator to the inlet box.

Circuits 9 and 10 are connected to a 240v circuit breaker so I believe that is what is meant by 'alive'. Nope, did not try attaching a UPS to the UTS. I don't have a UPS and did not want to invest in one when according to the literature a UPS is 'optional' and I don't really see the need for one. I could be wrong though, maybe a UPS is required and if that is the case I wish someone could tell me that so I at least know where I stand.

[Anonymous user]

i picked a winner said - i look forward to your results and if that doesnt make anymore sense, i will be able to test it myself.

have you had a chance to test this? really anxious to hear your results.

[Anonymous user]

yes, my email address is correct

[BillP]

hi everyone,

i just tested this for a little bit. let me share with you what I have found:

oh, first, to clear the record, a UPS is optional, and just provides an uninterruptible power source to certain circuits if need be. you dont need it if you dont care if the circuits go down before you start your generator.

let me tell you what I did for testing and what I have found out which hopefully will lead us to a solution.

we have a UTS6BI to work with here, so same deal except it only has six circuits versus ten.

first what we did is turned on the UTS itself and had a load attached on multiple circuits. we reset the configuration to default and then applied the settings that you had posted above. so the breaker was on to the main breaker panel and the UTS was on saying that the UTS was providing utility power to the circuits. I cut the main breaker and the UTS and the circuits and their load turned off immediately (which is expected). we dont have a generator hardwire kit so I used the standard generator inlet L14-30 plug that comes with the UTS by default. so after the UTS had been off for 30 seconds, I plugged the L14-30 in from the power source simulating us turning on/connecting the generator as you had done. the UTS immediately powered up and then the circuits shortly followed as expected.

i believe this is exactly what you did and yeah, it should be turning on. we tried a couple other scenarios with delaying the circuits and messing around with the configuration and in no way could i get the UTS and the circuits to NOT power on.

after digging a bit deeper on the inside of the UTS, and keeping in mind that you have the generator hardwiring kit (part # UTSHW), i have come to believe that there is potentially an issue with the wiring of that kit.

please see the manual for the UTS generator hardwiring kit attached to my post because I will reference it.

from this manual, it appears as though from the terminal block on the hardwiring kit, you should have a total of SIX wires wired into the UTS panel, FOUR being at connectors BU1-Y3 (J41), BU1-Y1 (J40), BU1-X1 (J4), BU1-X3 (J5), then the two at NEUTRAL (J19), NEUTRAL (J17) as noted in the chart in the manual.

you noted that you only see connections for the hardwiring kit at BU1-X1 and BU1-X3 which I have to say is J4 and J5 respectively. take a look at that and let me know if you agree that you do NOT have those other connections I mentioned of BU1-Y3 (J41) and BU1-Y1 (J40).

it looks like that is where the problem is to me - generator connections not wired properly or something.

hope this helps!

[Anonymous user]

I realized one of my previous posts was misleading and can see how you were able to draw the conclusion that you did. I had stated that there were only wires on BU1-X1, BU1-X3 leaving out that there were wires on BU1-Y3, BU1-Y1. At the time I was more focused on the fact that there were also connectors labeled BU1-X2 and BU1-Y2 that did not have wires connected to them. I see from the manual you attached that there should not be wires on BU1-X2 and BU1-Y2 so that was a red herring on my part. Sorry about the confusion.

from this manual, it appears as though from the terminal block on the hardwiring kit, you should have a total of SIX wires wired into the UTS panel, FOUR being at connectors BU1-Y3 (J41), BU1-Y1 (J40), BU1-X1 (J4), BU1-X3 (J5), then the two at NEUTRAL (J19), NEUTRAL (J17) as noted in the chart in the manual.
Yes, I do have those 6 wires going from the terminal block to the connectors on the circuit board. I will confirm again once I get home but if you look at the photos I attached to this post (http://forums.apc.com/spaces/11/netbotz-hardware-software/forums/general/1823/400c-boot-hang/1#26381) you can make out the 2 brown wires and 2 black wires from the terminal block to the connectors on the circuit board. It isn't obvious because the connector labels are somewhat obscured by the wires but I think you can tell by position. I have checked the red and black wires going into the terminal block (from generator) with the generator connected and running with a volt meter and measured ~260v. I was also able to measure the voltage on these wires at the connector on the circuit board and got a reading of ~260v. So it seems that may not be the problem unless there can be a problem with the neutral wires or somehow these wires aren't seated on the circuit board properly. I will check that too but otherwise the generator hardwiring kit seems to be connected properly.

I do want to thank you for the response and taking the time to do a test. At least you confirmed I do not need a UPS and that the UTS should power on when I shut off the main circuit breaker and connect the generator. That does eliminate a couple of the unknowns in my mind.

[BillP]

yeah we were comparing your pictures to what we had.

i will dig deeper tomorrow based on the information you have provided tonight and post back tomorrow.

[BillP]

matt,

can you try one last test here:

Can you use the provided power cord (NEMA 5-15P to IEC320) and, with the utility turned off, try to power the UTS through the UPS (BACKUP2) inlet. If this is not possible (because the main breaker is turned off), then one of two things can be done:

1) Use the generator's 120V output to try to power the UTS via the BACKUP2.

2) Only open the breakers that go to ckts 9 & 10 of the UTS10BI. This will have the same effect as opening the main breakers, as far as the UTS is concerned. Then the power cord can be plugged into any available, powered 120V outlet, and be used as the "BACKUP2" power source (i.e. simulating the UPS.)

what we are basically doing here is powering the UTS by a different source other than the generator while the utility power is off.

let me know how you make out.

[BillP]

also, i received some more information..

One possible cause of these symptoms is a lost neutral between the generator and the UTS. A disconnected Neutral combined with one phase more heavily loaded than the other will keep the unit from turning on. Can you recheck the wiring between the UTS and the Generator on both ends?

...of ~260V where the genrac line in was connected and at the BU1 X1 & X3 black and brown wire connectors on the circuit board.

We noticed that you may have mis-typed here and meant to say BU1 X1 & Y1. If you/the electrician did connect the black and brown wires of the HW kit to BU1 X1 & X3, you would be shorting out the generator which would trip the breaker on the generator. Looking at the pictures, it appears to be connected correctly, but can you please confirm?

Also, FYI, there is a 5 second delay from the time power is applied until the unit powers up but I know we waited longer than that.

[Anonymous user]

For either test, do I need to change the BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE setting to UPS? It is currently set as BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = Generator. Also, does it matter what the BACKUP2 POWER setting is? It is currently set to 1800W.

[Anonymous user]

Yeah, you're correct that I made a typo. I confirmed last night that the black and brown wires from the terminal block are connected properly.

How can I tell if there is a lost neutral?

[BillP]

i dont think it matters for this since it will just be SOME power source. just put it to UPS since we are simulating a UPS. just leave the power source as 1800 watts as well, per the same reasoning i just mentioned for the other setting.

[Anonymous user]

Results of recommended tests. I did test #2 first since it was the easiest.


Test #2 - Only open the breakers that go to ckts 9 & 10 of the UTS10BI.
opened circuit breaker for UTS ckts 9&10 and UTS powered off. Plugged in the power cord to UPS connector and then into a 120V house outlet. UTS powered on and indicated it was running on Backup source of UPS.

Test #1 - Use the generator's 120V output to try to power the UTS via the BACKUP2.
I set BACKUP2 SOURCE TYPE = UPS, started the generator, turned off the main breaker to the house circuit panel, set UTS circuit #8 (lights) BACKUP Source to UPS. Connected the power cord for UPS to generator's 120v outlet and then to the UPS connector on the UTS. The UTS powered on, indicated that it was receiving power from backup source UPS, and the UTS circuit #8 came on and the lights powered by circuit #8 came on.

Success! Yahooo! This makes me a little more happy. So if I follow the path you are going down we have just verified the UTS is working and the problem is most likely with the wiring between the UTS and generator, correct? What next? Call the electrician that installed the UTS to come back and do a little troubleshooting?

[BillP]

good, i am glad you were able to complete that.

i will follow up tomorrow to see if anyone has any ideas that you yourself (versus getting the electician back) can do to see if the problem is with the neutral but yeah, it seems like theres something up with the generator connection some place if the UTS works fine when powered by a "UPS."

i'll get back to you tomorrow after i share your results.

[Anonymous user]

In case it helps, attached another photo. This one gives a better view of the entire PCB.

[BillP]

sent you an email so we can take care of this offline.

[Anonymous user]

The replacement UTS10BI arrived on Monday. I have scheduled an electrician to come to the house on Friday to do the removal of the original UTS10BI and install the new UTS10BI. I will post back to this forum with results of the new UTS.

[Anonymous user]

UTS10BI saga update:

The electrician completed the swap of the original UTS with the new UTS and I performed two tests after completing the setup, configuration of the UTS10BI.

Test #1: simulate having a UPS connected by tripping the breaker UTS Circuits 9 and 10 are connected to and plugging in a power cord from a 120v house outlet to the UPS input on the UTS. The UTS powered on successfully and indicated its power source was from UPS. Result: Test Passed!

Test #2: run the UTS off of the generator. I tripped the main circuit breaker to the house and connected the generator to the outside Gentran power inlet box. The UTS powered up, indicated the power source was Generator and all 10 UTS circuits powered on. I tested each circuit by going through the house and turning on at least one item for each of the circuits being powered by the generator.Result: Test PASSED!

So needless to say, I am a much happier camper not to mention so is my wife.We can now be confident the brand new generator sitting in our garage is not just a conversation piece and taking up space. I almost can't wait for the next power outage. 😄

My thanks to I picked a winna for all the help and effort spent diagnosing the problem and how quickly a replacement UTS was shipped to me. As frustrating as it was to have a bad UTS I was very impressed with the professional manner in which the problem was handled. In my mind, APC's Customer service ranks very high.

[BillP]

hi again matt,

after someone else took a look at your picture of the PCB (which looked okay), another suggestion was given.

you reported that ~260V was measured between the black and brown wires. If the neutral is properly connected, you should measure about ~130V (1/2 of the voltage between the brown and the black) between the black and white and between the brown and white wires. Probably the easiest place would be to measure directly on the terminal block screws... If on the other hand the voltage is not what is expected, then the problem could be in the wiring between the terminal block and the generator.

hope this helps too!

[Anonymous user]

Thanks for the additional suggestion. I will give that a try although I may not be able to get to it for another day or two. Will definitely post back my findings.

[Anonymous user]

I was able to check the voltage between the black, brown and white wires tonight. I tripped the main circuit breaker to the house and as expected the UTS shut off. I connected my generator to the inlet box outside the house. As before, the UTS did not come on. I measured the voltage between the black and white and brown and white wires at several different locations and the results are:
1) at the terminal block screws, side where the wires come in to the UTS from the generator: black to white = 129v, red to white = 129v
2) at the terminal block screws, side where the white, black, and brown wires exit the terminal block: black to white = 129v, brown to white = 129v
3) at the white wire connector on the PCB and terminal block screws for the the black and brown wires: black to white = 129v, brown to white = 129v

Bummer. This seems to indicate the wiring is correct from the inlet box outside the house into the UTS terminal block and from the terminal block to the PCB.

[BillP · Accepted solution]

hi matt,

i appreciate all the testing you were able to do.

we agree that replacing the UTS is the best option at this point and I'd like to handle that with you personally offline.

can you please confirm your email address is correct and I can email you and then we can also set up a phone call if that works with you so I can sort out the details with you?

thanks! PM me if you'd like or post back to confirm the email is correct and I will send you an email.