UTS10BI what's the best settings in order to stagger the circuits coming on

[Anonymous user]

When the UTS switches from Utility to UPS and then from UPS to Gen, I would like to stagger the circuits from all coming on at the same time of the switch over to help ease the inrush current.

Can you recommend some tuning of my settings below to help accomplish this.

Here's one possible example I thought of but not sure if it will work. If I set more of my circuits to "Delayable" could I set one to be "Max Off=1", another to "Max Off=2", and another to "Max Off=3", then when it switches from Utility to UPS or UPS to Gen, one circuit will wait 1 minute to power up, the next one will wait 2 minutes to power up & the 3rd will wait 3 minutes to power up. Am I understanding how the "Delayable" option works when switching power sources?

Will this work to accomplish the circuits currently set to "either" to Not power on all at once, during the switch from Utility to UPS or UPS to Gen?

Is there a better way to slightly stagger the circuits as they power up during the switch over to different power sources?

Any help to tune my settings below is greatly appreciated as I'm not sure if I understand exactly how the firmware will determine the priority during the switch over to different power sources. I believe I understand how it works while a given power source is already running, but not at the time of a power source switch over.

I hope I'm making sense.

Many of the settings below are what it set it to as the "default" for the "load type". i.e. "Lights"

Load Shedding is set to "On"
Time Management is set to "On"
UPS set to 1800
Gen set to 2000
UTS #
1-Freezer, set as "Freezer" (Delayable=YES, Gen Only, Max Off=60, Max On=15)
2-Cloths Washer & lights, set as "lights" on the UTS (Delayable=NO, Either, Max Off=5, Max On=5)
3-Furnace, set as "Furnace" (Delayable=YES, Gen Only, Max Off=30, Max On=15)
4-Garage Door, lights, & plugs in living room set as "garage" (Delayable=NO, Either, Max Off=30, Max On=30)
5-Fridge, set as "Fridge" (Delayable=YES, Gen Only, Max Off=45, Max On=30)
6-19 inch kitchen tv & microwave, set as "microwave", (Delayable=NO, Either, Max Off=5, Max On=5)
7-lights & plugs, smoke detector, set as "lights", (Delayable=NO, Either, Max Off=5, Max On=5)
8-Masterbedroom & Masterbath, lights & plugs, set as "Home Theater", (Delayable=NO, Either, Max Off=5, Max On=5)
9&10 tied to a 20amp 240v breaker

Thanks so much, you folks are always so helpful & responsive!

-Todd

[Anonymous user]

elec-engr; An interesting read from the link you provided...

www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/Continuous_Load_Rating.html

[BillP]

hi todd.

i like the idea on trying to stagger the inrush - are you experiencing issues with this or just being more proactive?.

The only way I know of to control the load on transfer during the changes in source is by selecting some circuits to be uninterruptible and keep it on, but as your aware the load would then be carried by the UPS.

The delayed on/off min/max controls are a bit confusing and actually are not identified in detail, in the manual. I believe if the Delayed function is set to NO, the Min/Max would not effect the load as you've indicated. This applies to load shedding when the generator or UPS is running only, not the start up.

As far as when the UTS switches over from mains, my understanding is that the UTS will somehow figure out what to turn on and what to keep off based on the times and what it is set to either, uninterruptible or gen only to make sure it does not overload the generator but cycling that stuff as long as the circuit is set to delayed=on and your min and max delays are set accordingly.

[Anonymous user]

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, I am having a little inrush issues with the generator, only because I'm trying to tune it to a very small generator to conserve gas consumption if we had to run for days, which is unlikely, but I like to be prepared.

Thx for the reply & I will tinker with setting some of the current "non-delayable" circuits to "delayable" and see how that works.

I'll also try to isolate which circuits maybe causing the largest inrush. I'm still not sure if it's the CFL bulbs because there's only a couple of them turned on when I test the system. I think they are a contributor but not the main issue. I'll try swapping out the couple of CFL's with incandescent bulbs & see what that does.

What's left after that is to figure out if it's the three small APC BE350G UPSs that are in different rooms and on different circuits to keep the DVRs up. Unfortunately those circuits also run some heavy appliances so I don't really want to run those circuits through the UTS's UPS because of the high amperage of the appliances and having multiple circuits running through one UTS UPS that limits all the tied circuits to 1800 watts. They're daily use appliances, but not full time appliances, i.e. vacuum, toaster, microwave, hair dryer, etc. (my house wiring is really screwed up, for example the bathroom hairdryer plugs are also on the 2 small bedroom circuits, yuk. ya gotta hate older homes) That's why I have a point solution for the DVRs instead of a whole circuit solution through the UTS's UPS.

Then one last thing could be the 20amp battery charger on circuit 1 for the UTS's UPS charging, but I do have circuit 1 already set to "delayable".

Any other thoughts you have on tuning the system would be greatly appreciated.

-Todd

Message was edited by: Boatingrtb

[Anonymous user]

Totally unexpected... It's the cloths washer. If I unplug the cloths washer, the UTS will switch power sources with 12 CFL bulbs already turned on (various ratings from 13 to 43 watts). If I have the cloths washer plugged in, I can only have one or two CFL bulbs on maximum or the UPS or the Generator over load. Even though the cloths washer is not in operation.

[BillP]

=-O

and sorry, i did not have any other suggestions but sounds like you made some progress.

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb, in addition to your washing machine, it looks like you have a lot of non-linear loads on your UTS. Most CFLs and stand-alone UPSs have pretty crappy power factors (usually in the 0.6 range) so you are probably pulling a lot more amps through your UTS UPS than the wattage would indicate.

I just installed my UTS10BI and Honda EU6500 inverter generator a couple of months ago, did a test run by shutting off the main breaker and running off the generator for a few minutes, but haven't had a power outage to really test it. I have the same issues as you with a crazy mix of appliances on my circuits, so I can't really make good use of the UTS-connected UPS either. If anyone can figure out a good way to stagger the circuit power-up sequence to ease the startup inrush load on the generator, I am definitely interested. I didn't have a problem when I ran my test after installation, but I doubt that the system was really stressed then. Plus the Honda is a pretty sizable generator for the load I have on the UTS.

[Anonymous user]

elec-engr, thx for your thots.

i'm not familiar with power factor so i will have to study up a bit on that. I ran a couple of tests over the week-end. I ran the EU2000i for 30 minutes in one of the tests. It's was neat to see the UTS drop the fridge for example as the natural gas furnace started up & then bring the fridge circuit back on-line.

i get circuits 1 thru 8 on the UTS just fine with the EU2000i and someday hope to add a Eu65000i to the line up. Then I could utilize UTS circuits 9 & 10.

My new "stagger" plan for the cloths washer... I've removed it from the UTS and will just plug it into the hallway receptacle after all the other circuits are up & running on the generator, and if/when we would want to do a load of laundry while on genny power.

Is there a simple explanation for power factor for a non-electrician?

I also have another question for you. I notice that if I flip the main breaker to simulate a city power outage, the UPS then brings up the circuits set as "either", no problem, then once I plug in the genny, the UTS keeps the either circuits on UPS and only puts the "gen only" circuits on the generator. If the UPS & Genny are running at the time I throw the Main Breaker, all the circuits come up as running on the genny.

Have you noticed anything like that in your testing? I'm wondering how the UTS firmware decides to power a circuit with the UPS or Generator when a circuit is set to "either". I would have expected the UPS circuits to all switch to gen once the gen was plugged in. It doesn't seem to go into that kind of detail in the manual.

I may post a separate question on that.

-Todd

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb, sounds like you are much more adventurous with your UTS than I am. I don't have any UTS circuits set as "Either" or "Uninterruptible,", mostly because I have a small (1350VA, 765w, but only rated 700w off the battery outlet) UPS. All the circuits I would want to be uninterruptible have so much junk on them throughout the house that I'm afraid I'll overload the UPS, so I have the UPS plugged into the UTS but nothing is set up to use it right now. So I can't help you with this issue, sorry!

I'm curious, how did you get your UTS to work with the EU2000's 120V-only output? I am really impressed by the EU6500, it is super quiet, and supposedly can supply 7500w continuous (if you believe the info at www.screenlightandgrip.com). Unfortunately, the price tag is also impressive (and not in a positive way). If there's a way to run a subset of my UTS loads off a smaller unit like the EU2000, I might consider getting one to save fuel in extended outages.

I like your experiments with staggering and load shedding, wish I had the energy to do more of this, but every time I shut things off to exercise the UTS, every UPS in the house starts beeping, the wife & kids complain and then I have to spend a half hour resetting clocks.

Power factor is a term for the additional current that some appliances draw through the electrical system. The additional current is not actually consumed by the appliances, it is just pulled through the wiring and then returned to the power company. So the power company wires, and the wires in your house, are actually handling more current than the wattage loads indicate. There are several places on the web where you can get more information on this (e.g. wikipedia).

The main types of low power factor loads are electric motors, switching power supplies (computers/laptops, power bricks, UPSs, etc), and CFL bulbs. Power factor is defined as the power an appliance draws in watts divided by the (volts x amps) that it draws. For most resistive loads (like toasters, incandescent bulbs, etc), watts = volts x amps and the power factor is 1. A typical CFL or power supply has a power factor of about 0.6. So for example, let's say you have a circuit with 1,200w worth of CFL bulbs. At 120V, these bulbs should pull about 10 amps, but with a power factor of 0.6 they actually pull 10/0.6 or 16.7 amps. Only 10 amps is actually consumed, the other 6.7amps are returned to the utility (and as a residential user you are not charged for them, but some commercial users with large electric motors do pay extra), but they still flow through the wires, fuses, breakers, UPSs, generators, etc and can cause overloads when you aren't expecting them. Power factor is something that, until recently, only large commercial users with huge electric motor loads had to worry about, but with the huge numbers of CFL bulbs, laptops, cellphone chargers, UPSs, all those little transformer bricks you have all over your house, etc, it is becoming a widespread problem. These devices can all be built with power factor correction built in to eliminate this inefficiency, but it costs a little bit more to do this and manufacturers want to save the few pennies it would cost.

Sorry for the long lecture, but this is a pet peeve of mine. It is a growing problem that could be solved easily for a tiny investment, but no one is doing anything about it. There are a few "green" manufacturers making PF-corrected CFL bulbs, but not in the US that I know of. Since the power companies don't charge for low power factor (at least not yet) no one cares, but it makes them have to upsize their electric grids to handle all that extra current, even if it isn't actually consumed. This is costing everyone in the long run. (End soapbox rant).

[Anonymous user]

elec-engr, Your explanation of power factor was so helpful! Perfect for my understanding level.

I'm going to be long winded so you can double check my thinking.

Short answer, L14-30 female to male L5-30 adapter cord.

To be a little more specific on my installation, I have three APC BE350G UPSs that I picked up for $40 each at Walmart. One carries the 2 DVRs in the TV room, One carries the his & her alarm clocks in the master bedroom (so alarms will actually go off instead of just keep the time only with the 9v), and the 3rd carries the DVRs in the master bedroom. The other clocks in the house all have little 9v batteries so they keep the time even if the display is off for a little bit during the transition. The only clock I have to reset when I test is the microwave. I tend to do my testing when the family is away, so every couple of weeks or so I find myself with an hour to "play" with only myself at home.

For the UTS's UPS, I have a deep cycle marine 12v ($89 Costco), xantrex prowatt sw2000, & CTEC 25000 charger. (any suggestions on a better setup, I'm all ears) (I originally tried a Royal PIC2000, but didn't like the modified sine wave or the built in charger)

EU2000i usage... I actually installed a reliance outdoor transfer switch R30310B and tied in its L14-30 receptacle to the UTS with 8 gage wire. So when I plug in the genny to the R30310B it also sends the genny power to the UTS. I have the upstairs tied to the UTS, plus the furnace & basement freezer for power management on the UTS. The basement is manually lit up thru the R30310B on an as needed basis. Between the 2 transfer switches I can light up all the 120v circuits in the house. i.e. We live in the upstairs, but if I wanted to use some lights downstairs, I could flip the switches in the R30310B although that draw on the genny would not be managed by the UTS and could cause an overload. The thought process for me is I work 60 miles away from home & a mountain pass away, so the wife can just fire up the genny, plug it in & the upstairs will self-manage. If I'm home, I know enough about the setup to make a little more of the house light up. I tend to over engineer things.

My EU2000i is the companion model with the L5-30 plug.

Ok, with that background & the R30310B having an L14-30 receptacle, I purchased an adapter from w..cordtec.dotcom item L530L1430. As the catalog product name suggests it's a short cord that is L14-30 female on one end and L5-30 male on the other end. All it does is combine the hot leads on the L14-30 to the one hot end on the L5-30. One could make an adaptor for a ton cheaper then buying one, but at that stage in my project I was so much in the newbie learning curve of trying to play electrician that I opted to buy.

Basically, if I correctly understand what I've done, I'm lighting up both legs or sides of the 2 transfer switches with the single phase or wave form of the EU2000i, while leaving me the ability to later use the 2 hot legs of the L14-30 plug on the EU6500i some day. (sorry my electrical terms are still in the junior learning phase). (for my own clarification, I'm not lighting up both sides each with a wave form 180 degrees apart, but with a single, same wave form?)

Looking at the schematics of the UTS, I was hoping that circuits 9 & 10 would light up since each was receiving the same 120v power. The LEDs on the UTS light up for 9 & 10 as though they're active, but there is no power coming out the end of the wires. My best thought is the UTS has "Voltage Sensitivity" HIGH, MEDUIM, LOW that's cutting out the power. My guess is the UTS is sensing only 120v on the combined 9 & 10 220v and shutting down power to 9 & 10 because it's outside of spec. The manual seems to indicate that the "LOW" setting disables UTS intervention for voltage sensitivity. I may try setting the UTS to "LOW" Voltage Sensitivity (i.e. bypass UTS intervention) and see if 9 & 10 power up as 120v. If I can make that happen, I could have 2 more 120v circuits that could be managed off the UTS while using the EU2000i. I'm quite confident I can use them as two 120v circuits if I were using an EU65000i with the L14-30 input. (UTS 9 & 10 still tied in the breaker panel to trip together as if they were a 220v breaker, in my case circuit breakers 1 & 3 tied together with a bar so they trip together) I believe the UTS has to sense both legs of power being out to determine it's a true power outage on the main.

Perhaps an easier way to plug in the EU2000i would be to use the cord that came with the UTS for the UPS, only plug it into the EU2000i instead of the UPS (backup 2 in the manual), that would light up UTS circuits 2 through 8, powering 7 of the 10 circuits on the EU2000i and still leaving the ability to plug in the EU65000i to the outside L14-30 generator plug and light up all 10 circuits.

THANKS so much for your great explanation on power factor.

Based on that new knowledge, I'm wondering if I should set the UTS generator wattage setting to something lower then 2000 watts for the EU2000i.

Sorry to be so long winded. Since I'm flying by the seat of my pants, any thoughts from you as my expert are greatly appreciated.

-Todd

side note, when I was testing the other day, my wife came home while on the UTS's UPS power. The garage door suddenly started to open because I have the garage set to "either". Didn't mean to test it at the time, but, it worked real slick for opening & closing the garage door & lighting the garage. i.e. this will be nice in a real emergency to get the generator out of the garage to fire it up, using UPS power for lights & garage door. You may want to start tinkering putting a few of your light circuits and/or garage door circuit set to "either" and see how you like it.

.

[Anonymous user]

elec-engr,

Good luck on your incoming storm, hopefully it misses you. If you do use your system for real, post your observations.

Plugging the EU2000 into the UPS inlet will work. It's no different then plugging in a UPS to backup2. The only thing is backup2 is limited to a maximum wattage of 1800.

When I first unboxed the UTS, I plugged in the supplied UPS cord into the UTS and shoved the other end into a regular house outlet ten seconds out of the box & started playing with the system configs before it was even fully unwrapped. (like a little kid at christmas) It would be no different to shove the UPS plug end into the EU2000 instead of a UPS. I played with the user interface and learned the system long before I actually installed it, all from the UPS cable being plugged into a house outlet.

If its to be powered by the mains, it has to show 240v on 9 & 10 to power the UTS. Otherwise it thinks the city power is still out & the UTS will remain on UPS or Generator. One could definitely have the EU6500 plugged in & running on backup1, have the EU2000 plugged into backup2 and running at the same time. i.e. Have the EU2000 power circuits 2 thru 8 most of the time, then when you want to use a heavy load appliance, turn the key & fire up the EU6500, auto transfer & have access to all 10 circuits & no cords to plug or unplug between the EU6500 & the EU2000. When you're done with the heavy load, simple shut the EU6500 down. All while leaving the EU6500 & the EU2000 each plugged into the different inlets for backup1 & backup2. Here's the beauty of this thot... If you were to add a remote wireless start/stop to the EU6500, you could leave the EU2000 running all the time & from inside your home, hit the wireless remote to start the EU6500, run your heavy load, when done, hit the key fob to stop the EU6500. You never have to leave your house.

www.wisesales.com/honda-wireless-remote-start-kit.html#.UImpPGmDQXw

www.speedwaysales.com/generators-accessories-honda-eu6500-wireless-remote-starter-p-5381.html#.UImpY...

www.amazon.com/Honda-EU6500-Wireless-Remote-Starter/dp/B004DR3CEW

Again, I tend to over engineer things.


If the only power source is the UPS (backup2) the UTS will power itself off the UPS.

It will also power itself just fine from a 240v generator on backup1.

I do need to test to see if the 120v generator is the only power source on backup1, if the UTS will power up with the EU2000 L5 to L14 adapter.

It's obviously powered by either the UPS or the EU2000 in my tests when I shut the mains off, because I can still access all system functions on the UTS. I can see the circuit status & change any function when the mains are shut off.

As for the hair dryer, remember that if you set that circuit to "either" or "UPS", it will only run thru the UPS if the mains go down. At that time, it will transfer that circuit to the UPS after a few seconds of delay. Only if that circuit is set to "uninterruptible" will that circuit constantly flow thru the UPS 100% of the time. i.e. your daughter could only affect it with the hair dryer when the mains are out. Once your generator comes on-line, then that circuit should transfer from UPS to Generator with the larger EU6500. I also replaced all the UTS internal fuses with 20amp fuses and reset each circuit on the UTS to the 20amp status instead of the factory default 15amp status & fuses.

Thx for your thots, let's keep bouncing ideas back & forth.

-Todd

[Anonymous user]

have you seen any of these features?

www.generatorsales.com/order/Honda-EU6500iSA-Tri-fuel.asp?page=EU6500iSA_Tri_Fuel

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQhgfF3qwE

blog.rv.net/2009/05/extended-run-time-fuel-tank-for-generators/

www.wisesales.com/generators-1/honda-generators-1/honda-generator-accessories/honda-generator-extend...

www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=honda+generator&_osacat=33082&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=honda+e...

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb, thanks for all the great info. You have really been exploring the nuances of the UTS. From the manual, I was convinced that it wouldn't work without 240V across 9&10, either from the gen or utility. But it makes sense that this couldn't be true, since the system still has to work with the UPS backup2 input. I'm glad you straightened me out on that! I'm guessing that you are right about it using the voltage across 9&10 to sense the utility power state. I like the idea of using something like the EU2000 as backup2, or maybe swapping out the UPS for the EU2000 when I need more generator duration. I guess I would have to reprogram the UTS backup2 parameters if I did this, but that should only take a minute or so. Let me know what you find out about it working with only 120v on backup1.

I have seen the modified EU6500s at the links you listed. If I had it to do over again, I would probably buy the version with the triple fuel mod and tap into my utility-supplied natural gas. That way I could run on gen power indefinitely, without worrying about running around trying to find gas, and shutting down only for oil changes or to give the gen a rest. I may consider doing the mod to add the tri-fuel option myself in the future.

I will probably be visiting this site only sporadically for the next week or so, due to the weather. Looks we are going to get hit pretty bad here by the hurricane, with lots of rain and 60+ mph winds predicted for a couple of days (Monday & Tuesday). Trying to get the house and our emergency supplies ready over the weekend. Even with generator power, I expect that Comcast (my internet supplier) will be down so I'll likely be out of touch.

[Anonymous user]

Hurricane came & went, power went out, UTS10BI worked as advertised. In fact, it fooled me for a few minutes into thinking the power didn't fail. It was during the day yesterday, I was sitting near a TV and fan that were on. They went off and then right back on, so I thought we were OK. Turns out I had accidentally set that circuit to "Either" and the UPS took over the load. When I finally figured it out, I powered up the generator and my eight favorite circuits were up and running. Power came back up this morning after about 20 hours out. The UTS switched back to utility power smoothly and the excitement was over.

Only complaint is that there were several times during the outage when I wished I had more than 8 circuits backed up. Maybe I'm spoiled, but I missed a few of my appliances even we were only out for 20 hours. Never had a chance to exercise load shedding, since I kept the generator load down to about 1/4 of its capacity most of the time to save on fuel.

[Anonymous user]

so, does anyone know what's the secret to the modified eu6500is? is it just the step down transformer that allows for 7500watts continuous power?

[Anonymous user]

raysmd, don't know exactly what they did to get 7500w. The breaker on the 240V outlet is 30A so it can theoretically supply 7200w before tripping. Maybe they just bypassed the breaker on that circuit and depend on the inverter itself to protect the circuit (as they say the UK version does). The transformer does not provide any enhanced power output. It just allows them to run long power cords at 240V with less loss, then convert down to power their 120v lights. This also keeps the noise of the generator away, provides shock protection, and perfectly balances the two 120v phases at the generator.

Boatingrtb, thanks for the suggestions. This will work for the washing machine. Next time I run it I'll put my Killawatt on it to see how much it draws and what circuit I should plug it into. Unfortunately the disposal is hardwired, but I can rough it and do without this.

[Anonymous user]

elec-engr,

glad to hear you didn't have much trouble with the storm. sounds like a lot of people got hit hard.

I did a test yesterday for you to see if the EU2000 alone would power the UTS. Looks like it doesn't.

I unplugged the UPS & Charger from the UTS. Then I flipped the main breaker. The house went dark as well as the UTS. Then I fired up the EU2000 with the L530 to L1430 adapter & plugged it into backup1. The UTS & the house stayed dark. With the EU2000 still plugged in & running, I plugged the UPS back in. The UTS lit up & the house switched the circuits to the EU2000 on backup1.

Conclusion: It appears the UTS requires both 9 & 10 to show 240v to power the UTS when on generator only with no UPS, the same as Utility Power must show 240v on 9 & 10. With the UPS plugged in, the EU2000 powered circuits 1 thru 8 with no problems. I ran the house for about 30 minutes on the EU2000.

I still have the funny anomaly that if the UPS is powering the UTS before the generator is plugged in, once the generator is plugged in, the "either" circuits stay on UPS while all the other circuits switch to generator. But if the UPS & Generator are running together at the time the power goes out or the UTS lights up, all the circuits come up on the generator.

Question for you, since you have a 240v generator, why are you not using circuits 9 & 10? As long as 9 & 10 are on opposite legs of the circuit breaker box, and are tied together to trip together, you can use them as separate 120v circuits. Other people have done this and it works just fine. Two of those people who have done it have posted on this forum.

I have my circuits 9 & 10 tied to 9=cloths washer, 10=Disposal & Dish Washer. They work just fine on Utility Power & when I get an EU6500 like you, I will have access to those appliances on the generator with power management & load shedding. Just a thot for you.

BTW, what appliances did you miss & what are your favorite 8 circuits?

-Todd

.

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb, thanks for doing that test for me. Very interesting that if you have the UPS connected you can run the UTS on 120v. EU6500 worked great but it ran through about 7 gallons of gas in the 20 hours we were out, even at about 1/4 load. This is OK for short outages, but if we ever have an extended outage with gas shortages (like they are seeing in NY and NJ now), a more austere, economical generator like the EU2000 might be nice to have.

Had a minor issue with the EU6500 during the outage. It experienced surging, varying engine speed up and down 300-400 rpm on a 3 or 4 second cycle, at low-level loads (800 to 1600 watts). A web search showed a few other owners who have also experienced this. One said rebuilding his carb fixed it, another said a Honda rep told him that the battery compartment seal could cause this. I plan on investigating this and fixing ASAP. The EU6500 had 2 hours on it before the storm hit, now has about 22 hours. Changed the oil and checked the air filter before the storm started, used only new, stabilized gas. Hopefully my local Honda dealer will fix this under warranty. The surge did not seem to impact the generator's performance, it was just annoying and not right for a new, clean generator. Plus it can't be good for the engine.

I also experienced your "funny anomaly" during the outage. The circuit I had accidentally set to "Either" (see my previous post) came back up on the UPS a few seconds after the power went out (as it should have) but stayed on the UPS even after I started the generator. It finally switched to GEN after my wife turned on the outside floodlights while taking out the dog. The floods apparently caused the circuit to exceed my UPS max power setting (700w), and the UTS must have then switched the circuit to the generator. So I guess I did do a little inadvertent load balancing/shedding.

Since you guys have tested using two 120v circuits (on opposite phases) for 9 & 10, I think I'll redo these circuits to include some of the circuits I wished I had during the outage. Not sure which two I'll pick. Problem is I want at least 4 or 5 more circuits: 2 general lighting circuits, the garbage disposal (yeah, I know, too decadent for an outage, but my wife and kids missed it), the washing machine, and a mostly unused 20A circuit. The 20A circuit would be primarily for an extension cord to my next door neighbor, a single mom with no generator. I have been doing this for years, but it's been limited to just running her fridge due to my previous generator being so small. During this outage I also told her she could run her sump pump. I plugged her into one of my 8 circuits, rather than directly into the generator, so the UTS could manage her load. If I could put her on a dedicated circuit, she could probably run a few other things as well, like some lights, without tripping one of my already-loaded circuits. Only problem is the cord. It needs 100 feet, and I use my 12 gauge cord, so as long as she doesn't add much extra length in her house the voltage drop should be safe.

The 8 circuits I have now are:
1. GFCI kitchen outlets (fridge, coffeemaker, etc)
2. Sump pump (NO batt backup), scattered lights
3. GFCI circuit with freezer, garage fridge, bathroom and outside outlets
4. Son's bedroom, spare bedroom, hardwired smoke detectors, hall & foyer lights
5. Master bedroom (partial) w/TV,Tivo on UPS, daughter's bedroom, outside floods, garage door opener (batt backup)
6. Gas furnace blower/electronics
7. Library outlets (incl computer on UPS, video security system & network stuff on another UPS), front outside lights
8. Family room outlets (incl TV, Tivo on UPS), rear porch lights, 2nd garage door opener (batt backup)

Hot water heater is gas, no power needed. Most lights are CFL except outside floods. Also have CO detectors all over the house. The generator is about 12 feet from house, on the rear screened-in porch, with exhaust pointed away. But I still worry about CO, even though I haven't had a problem yet.

[Anonymous user]

A quick thot to put more circuits on your limit of 10.

Since the disposal is probably plugged into the back wall under the sink, you could have a 15 amp appliance cord under there with it & in a generator emergency you could run the extension cord out from under the sink & plug it into a kitchen outlet that you have tied to UTS 1.

Same for the cloths washer. Appliance cord by the washer & run it to a UTS circuit during generator usage.

Not elegant but it would make it possible to run & have UTS power management for 2 of your 5 additional circuits without taking up a circuit.

Then your 2 additional lighting circuits as UTS 9 & 10.

Remembering that 9 & 10 won't work when running on the EU2000.

.

[Anonymous user]

really? I've got a cheap Champion 7500 watt generator, but would love to get the eu6500is for it's low noise and inverter output. 5500 running watts is just too low for a generator this expensive. An extra 2000w would be worth the expense. I think I could power the whole house with the modified honda and the APC UTS10Bi

[Anonymous user]

If you carefully read the source for this 7500W claim
(www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/Continuous_Load_Rating.html),
it tells how they empirically determined the actual load you can put on the EU6500 before it overloads. It also explains their theory as to why it has been derated down to 5500w (OSHA rules).

At its full rated load, the EU6500 will only run for about 4 hours on a tank of fuel. At 7500w, I would imagine it lasts even less, maybe 3 hours or so. You might consider one of the extended fuel tank or tri-fuel options to get more run time.

Remember that the UTS can only handle 10 circuits, so unless you have a really small electrical panel in your house, you will probably have to give up something.

[Anonymous user]

so, I can use circuits 9 & 10 as 120v?

I'm having an electrician install my UTS10Bi next week and need to make sure it's done properly? I have a non-Honda generator that output 240v also. What do I need to tell my electrician so that I can use the additional outlets?


Thanks

[Anonymous user]

check this thread out

http://forums.apc.com/spaces/9/struxureware-for-data-centers/forums/general/1929/integrate-3rd-party...

I'm not an electrician.

My interpretation of APC's stance that 9 & 10 need to be a dedicated circuit is because the UTS needs to sense if both legs or bus bars of the power main are out. So, in my mind, what ever circuit breakers in the breaker box are tied to 9 & 10, need to trip together as a dedicated 240v circuit. If you can use 9 & 10 to supply a dedicated 20 amp subpanel with a 120v outlet coming off the subpanel for a charger, as indicated in the thread above, it's doable.

again, i'm not an expert, but i see a couple of ways to do this.

You could run a 240v 2 pole 20 amp breaker to a subpanel that supplies one or 2 120v legs.
You could run a 240v 2 pole 20 amp breaker, each pole supplying a 120v circuit.
You could tie UTS 9 & 10 to 2 circuit breakers next to each other on opposite bus bars & then use a tie bar on the throw switches to trip them together so if one circuit gets tripped, both circuits get flipped.

Since you're having an electrician install it, he'll know what to do.

my 9 is tied to the cloths washer & 10 is tied to my dishwasher/disposal on opposite bus bars through a 240v 2 pole circuit breaker. (my circuit breakers 1 & 3) They work fine as 120v circuits on main power running through the UTS. I do not have a 240v generator, only an eu2000 120v that i plug in with an L5-30 to L14-30 adapter pigtail, so I have not tested with a 240v generator to ensure UTS 9 & 10 will run the cloths washer & dishwasher/disposal off the generator, however, if it works of mains 240v, it should work just the same off of a 240v gen.

post your results here when you & your electrician have tested the 240v gen and 9 & 10 have lit up as 120v circuits from a dedicated 240v breaker.

[Anonymous user]

I tested the "voltage sensitivity" to see if I could get UTS 9 & 10 to light up from the eu2000 120v using the L5-30 to L14-30 adapter. Since I was powering both legs or buses with the same 120v, I had a small glimmer of hope that maybe the voltage sensitivity setting was causing 9 & 10 to not have power based on the manual saying, "LOW setting disables UTS intervention for voltage sensitivity" and mine was set to MEDIUM.

I set the voltage sensitivity to LOW, but 9 & 10 still do not have power on the "out" wires even though the LEDs are lit up on the UTS panel. Unfortunately I still haven't figured out how to make 9 & 10 work on the 120v generator as 120v circuits even though 9 & 10 work fine as 120v circuits when running on city power.

I hope by posting my testing I can help someone else out there reading this thread.

[Anonymous user]

This maybe a bit late; Have you considered putting a small transformer to boost your 110V to to 220V? You only need enough current to power small controller board so a small transformer may work. A two to one winding count transformer should be easy to find. I suspect a cheap us/euro travel adaptor may do it (attach the 110 on the US plug side, the euro side will give you 220... just make sure to voltmeter the output stage befor you wire it in, and after you wire it in make sure outputs stage does not sag and that it does not get too hot, if it does you need a bigger xfmr --- 60C is pain threshold, if you cant hold it the xfmr is too small).

It would be nice if the next APC transfer switch gets an internal auto-ranging supply that makes it a truly universal design, maybe even a built-in small battery backup option for the UTS (the externally attached UPS is intended as a user power source that can get drained).

Anyone from APC willing to share product roadmap? Surely you would get some useful customer feedback.

Message was edited by: Friedrich

[Anonymous user]

In above post, I should have added that the small transformer suggestion is based on you not using the 220V output pair.
If you want to use the 220V transfer switch leads you will need a large transformer (probably a110 to 220 center tap type so you can have a correct return reference in case you want to use unbalanced outputs - recreating two 110 split-phase outputs).

[Anonymous user]

Friedrich,

I love your expertise, but you are talking way over my head. My electrical knowledge is slightly more advanced then the beginner level.

My UTS lights up fine with the UPS inlet power and runs output on circuits 1-8 with my 120v generator using an L530 to L1430 pigtail, while the main city power is out.

My objective for my project would be to get the UTS circuits 9 & 10 to output two independent 120v circuits while running on 120v generator power. My 9 & 10 are already wired as 2 independent 120v circuits and work fine on City Power, but not with the L530 to L1430 pigtail.

In your description of a Large Transformer, I assume that is an appliance that would go between the 120v generator and the L1430 inlet plug? Can you provide an example or a link to one for reference? In my situation, I can tether my Honda EU2000 & EU1000 together to produce 3000 watts from the generator to input into the UTS generator inlet. So in this scenario I would need a 120v-to-220v transformer that could easily handle a capacity 3000 watts. I barely understand that my 240v city power is really two 120v wires coming into the circuit breaker box and are 180 degrees apart in phase.

Does the large transformer convert the 120v power into 2 legs of 120v 180 degrees apart? Forgive me, I don't even know if I'm using the right terms.

The Small Transformer, I have no concept of how I would plug it in to the UTS or hardwire it to the UTS circuit board to power the UTS similar to how the UPS inlet powers the UTS. In "electricity for dummys" terms, how would I accomplish this? Does a us/euro travel adapter convert the 120v to two 120v hot legs like my city input to my circuit breaker box?

Thank you for your help & ideas, I have loved learning and growing through this project.

-Todd

[Anonymous user]

This is going to be a long rambling post, so my apologies in advance.

If your requirement is to generate enough power from the 110V to 220V for home loads then the travel transformer is not useful - it would have been useful only if all you wanted was to power the UTS without a UPS plugged in (since the UTS requires 220V on 9/10 inputs or UPS present to power its controller board).
What you described is correct, a 110 to 220 transformer with a center tap will generate two 110V sources when measured relative to the center tap (note that the center tap will be used as the neutral/return). This is similar to how the service 220V is generated, except the conversion is down - pole power lines are high voltage and are stepped down to a 220/110 split phase for home use (note that often it is referred to as 240/120 instead of 220/110). Here is a write-up about transformers http://jacobs-online.biz/understanding_transformers.htm (skip the autotransformer/variac section) also here is another link better technically but dry reading: http://www.sayedsaad.com/fundmental/19_TRANSFORMERS%20.htm
Transformers are not 100% efficient; they do have losses so you may not want to convert all your power from 110 to 220V or at least understand how much you will lose in conversion. Also for cost reasons a smaller transformer than 3kW, just for the 9/10 input leads may be worth consideration and use the 9/10 output leads for less taxing loads (good to avoid high surge loads like motors, use the 9/10 output for some nice linear loads). A better place for the transformer may be inside the house near the UTS rather than on the generator side of your feed, away from the elements, especially if you get a bare transformer without a weather proof NEMA housing. Also note APC’s documentation that says 9/10 need to be used as a single circuit 220V (there was talk on the forum about adding a subpanel for it making it OK but I cannot comment on that without seeing UTS schematics and understanding the reason for 9/10 being treated as a 220V output pair rather than 2x110V. (maybe someone knows the reason – beyond spec says)

Here is a link to a distributor that has a reasonably good selection of transformers and specifications http://www.temcoindustrialpower.com/search.html?category=Transformers_-_General&sort=price+-+lowest&....

Of course you want to shop around at electrical surplus places etc… Transformers are expensive retail, but can be had for a lot less at liquidators and surplus stores (don’t know if there are some in your area).

Just as a reference to help you decipher transformer specs; a 120x240 means winding can be wired 120 or 240 whereas a 120/240 means winding can be wired 120, 240 or center tap 240 (two 120s). So for example a transformer that is 120x240 primary and 120/240 secondary will do what you want.

If you do decide to try this ask an en electrician or electrical engineer friend to help and make sure everything is measured 1st before loading the outputs and that the center tap is connected to the return/neutral. This may even be tried without a generator, using one of the line 120s as a mock generator, a low rating breaker or/and an additional inline fuse to limit current flow for short circuit protection is also a good idea.

Before you get a transformer and electrican help, estimate the current draw on your line 9/10 output to choose correct KVA rating. KVA is kilo Volt Ampere and assume transformer input power=output power. So if you want to supply two 120 lines with ~10A each you are looking at a 2x10x120=2.4KVA – yes of course that is about the limit of your generators but since you have a nice APC UTS that does load shedding you may be able to use a smaller transformer. For inductive loads fudge factor about 70% adder per load unit in your 9/10 load calculations.

If you cannot locate a reasonably affordable 120/240 CT transformer, there are other ways to skin this by using multiple 1:1 transofmers (rolling your own, read the dry theory linked site) . But first, try to locate a local surplus store see what you can find affordably in 1:2 distribution transformers.

[Anonymous user]

so, my electrician just installed my UTS10bi today. He was not comfortable hooking up circuits 9&10 as out of phase 120v circuits. So, he just added new 240v 20amp breakers just to power the UTS.

so, now I have to do this myself. Seems pretty simple since I watched him wire circuits 1-8.

Here's what I plan to do. Hook up circuit 9 to the kitchen lights (15amp breaker) and circuit 10 to kitchen GFI outlets (20 amp breaker). Yes, they are both out of phase. Not adjacent to each other (above and below), but above, below, and across (i.e, diagonal from each other).

My concern is that 9&10 have a 20amp fuse. Will I have any problems since circuit 9 will be 15amps and circuit 10 will be 20 amps?


Thanks

[Anonymous user]

To ensure that your two source 9/10 feeds are split phase, just put a AC voltmeter between/across them - it should read 240, if it reads 0 you are in phase with both feeds.

Why do you want to undo the electricians work? He only wired up the input/source of 9/10 feed - the output can still go to your two intended loads (Kitchen lights & GFI). What the electrician did, was not to try to second guess why the UTS10BI wants 9/10 inputs to be on a unified 240 breaker and to eliminate potential liability just put one in. I assume 9/10 ATS outputs go to Kithcen lights and GFI the only thing you have to deal with is that one tripping will cause the other to trip - just as iff they were on a single ckt, not a big deal.

You are supposed match protection devices (breaker/fuse rating) to match ampacity of conductors - if you have 12/2 romex then 20A if 14/2 then 15A. If you have 14/2 wire on one of the ckts but not the other and want to be code compliant then you may change your double breaker down to a dual 15A. (though by that premise you should also change the fuses inside your UTS anywhere you have 14/2 wire to 15A fuse)

Most sparkys use 20A 12 gauge wire across the board in new construction unless the builder is penny wise and dollar foolish – most of the cost is in labor, not enough difference between 12/2 & 14/2 wire. Just the inventory management alone makes it worth unifying around a single 110V gauge.

[Anonymous user]

raysmd, I agree with Friedrich.

Here's what I would do since I'm not an electrician.

I would pick a UTS circuit 1 through 8 that is a 20amp circuit. Let's say for this example UTS 8 is a 20 amp circuit. Move the house circuit wire on UTS 8 "out wire" to UTS 10 "out wire". Connect your 15 amp Kitchen house circuit wire to UTS 8 "out wire". Change UTS 8 fuse from 20 amp fuse to 15 amp fuse, & corresponding CB to 15 amp. Connect 20amp Kitchen GFI house wire to UTS 9 "out wire".

boom... 3 wires your done.

UTS 9 & 10 stay on the newly installed breaker & trip together, and both 9 & 10 are 20amp.

[Anonymous user]

Ahh, I like it!

Keep the input to the UTS via the newly installed breaker and just use the output wire to power the needed 120v circuits. So in a sense I'm just using each of the 240v legs as individual 120 circuits

Much simpler. Thanks

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb,
Did you find an 120 to 240CT transformer?
I was at alocal surplus store in the Northeast and saw a 7.5KVA transformer for $185. A lot more than what you need (weighs 145lbs) but gives you an idea of used xfmr pricing - what used to retail for ~$1800 is now $0.10 on the dollar. So you may be able to find a used 2KVA tranaformer for maybe $70 or so.

[Anonymous user]

raysmd,

If you wire 9 & 10 this way, plz report back how 9 & 10 work on 240v generator.

This is how mine is wired and 9 & 10 work fine on city power, but I only have a 120v gen and have not tested my 9 & 10 with a 240v gen. So I'd be interested to hear your report after your generator test.

-Todd

[Anonymous user]

so, I've just hooked up circuits 9 & 10 as Friedrich suggested. I used the hot wire from the newly installed 240v breaker to power the kitchen GFI and lights. Everything is powered up from the utility. Next step it to hook up the generator. One step at a time.


anyway, there may be a little problem as the UTS does not monitor the wattage of circuit 10 (since 9 & 10 are supposed to be a single circuit). No matter what load I put on it, the UTS system and circuit status do not recognize it. This may be a problem if load shedding is important. It might be ok as long as circuit 10 is used for lights since it won't draw too much power.

[Anonymous user]

Boatingrtb, Wow! You have quite a setup there. I had fleeting thoughts of putting in a second transfer switch to handle some of the circuits I had to give up when I installed the UTS. I was tempted to just install an interlocked backfeed straight into my breaker panel so I could selectively power anything in the house, but I liked the idea of the UTSs power management so much I went with it instead. It looks like I will be getting a real test of my backup power setup. I live between Washington DC and Baltimore, and a huge hurricane may be headed our way. I am preparing for an extended outage, got to run out and get some extra generator gas.

Re screenlightandgrip.com, your link is a subset of his epic post, http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html
If you have three or four spare hours, it's an interesting read. This guy really knows portable power.

I'm not really familiar with the internal workings of the UTS10BI, but from my reading of the manuals, it needs 240v across circuits 9 & 10 to power the unit itself. I can imagine that the LEDs for 9 & 10 light up if they each have 120v. from hot to neutral. With your L5-30 to L14-30 adapter you get this, but the voltage between the hot leads to 9 & 10 will be 0v rather than 240v, since the two hot wires are tied together at the L5 connector. Not sure how this will work if the UTS truly does need 240v to operate. If you plug the EU2000 into the UPS input, I'm not sure that will work either since the UTS is still not getting the 240v on 9 & 10 that it needs to power itself on. Again, I really know nothing about the UTS internals, so if your experiments show a connection scheme that works, please let us know. I for one would probably seriously consider buying an EU2000 as a backup to my EU6500 (as well as other stand-alone uses where the 6500 is not portable enough).

Re: de-rating your EU2000 wattage in the UTS setup, I would set it for whatever it works reliably at. The EU2000 will probably complain (by tripping internally) when it is overloaded. The EU6500 manual says it can handle 5500w continuous, 6500w for up to 30 min, and our movie guy says you can get even more out of it. Maybe the 2000 is similar, only trial-and-error can tell for sure. Your low-power-factor items are probably a relatively small portion of your total load in a power outage, and the inverter generators apparently handle these non-linear loads much better than standard generators, so imho I would keep it set at 2000w and then reduce it if you start having problems with the generator tripping before the UTS does. To me, an optimum solution would be where the UTS trips just before the generator does.

Both of my garage doors have built-in battery backups, and one of them is on a UTS-supplied circuit, so it will recharge once the generator is up. I think I have one circuit with mostly lights that I can run through the UPS, just hope my daughter doesn't try to plug her hair dryer in when I'm not paying attention!

p.s. I'm by no means an expert, I'm a retired electronics engineer with no professional experience in electrical power, so no guarantees on the accuracy of anything I say 😉

[Anonymous user]

Friedrich, I have not. Work has been a bear taking most of my focus recently.

[faktor_apc · Accepted solution]

Boatingrtb,

I know this thread is many years old, but I am in a similar situation with a 120V generator right now and wondering how your experience has been running the panel with a 120V generator over the years? Are you still running it that way? Any recommendations?

Thanks!