Possible manufacturing defect with BE650Y-IN model?

[Anonymous user]

"APC the brand. The most trusted brand for UPS in the world" (my personal thoughts about APC)

I put my trust in APC and was disappointed a bit recently.

I had purchased BE650Y-IN in October 2008. All fine till June 2010 when I started facing problems. I contacted support and the unit was replaced. So far so good.

In October 2010, I faced problems again. I contacted support and logged the call and was told that the problem would be resolved in 2 business days. No response for almost 2 weeks. Frustrated, I contacted support once again. The unit was replaced the same day. Just after 3 days again 'problem'. Again contacted support and the unit was replaced. 3 weeks after the last unit was replaced, once again 'problem'.

I am just off talking to support about it. I have been assured for a solution ASAP. Was searching for the problems with this specific model and found about this forum. As I read a few posts and comments on this forum and found similar problems to mine. I do understand that this forum is supposed to be for North-American region. But still, if any responsible person from APC answers my post, I'll be more than happy to discuss the full matter further.

I am associated with Information Technology since last 12 years and have used lot of products and services. Thus, I doubt that this seems like some manufacturing / design or some other recurring kind of a problem with this particular model. As all the units replaced seemed to be brand new (atleast by the looks), I dont know whether they were actually brand new or refurbished. Though, I am well experienced to check for problems on my own, I never do things on my own when devices are under warranty. In my case though, my warranty might be exhausted, but I am here to discuss this openly with any/everyone interested.

In my professional experience, I have never had this kind of problems with APC. But I am using this product at my home.

I'll be more than happy to discuss details if/when anyone from APC seems to be interested as I mentioned earlier.

Vipul Pradhan

[Anonymous user]

Hi Clarkson,

Here is the detailed account of what has happened till now.

October 2008: I bought the said model of UPS (with 2yr. on site warranty). All things working perfectly.
Connected equipment: CPU with 450W SMPS, 19 inch LCD Monitor and ADSL modem.
Battery backup time: around 20-25 mins.
Normal boot-up: Turn on mains. Turn on the UPS. Amber led flashing and after few seconds it turns into Green and the led is not blinking.
During mains off (on battery): Green led turns into Amber and the led is not blinking.

June 2010: Occasionally, when power goes on/off (power-cut/resume; or turning on/off the mains line) the PC would restart. At first I never suspected the UPS to be the cause. I changed almost all PC components viz. 500W SMPS (new), Hard Disk (replaced), CPU fan (new and better one) and in the end even upgraded my MoBo (new and better one). Those components which were not changed/replaced were all tried for possible problems on my vendor's PC and seemed to work fine. Then I thought what if the UPS is giving problems. Troubleshooted with 2 PCs and the problem did seem to be the UPS. It happened on 90% of instances when the power was switched on/off. I contacted APC via web support chat. I was instructed to discharge the unit completely till the backup time goes off and then recharge the unit overnight and check. I did that. Same result. I logged a complaint that the given solution did not work. The unit was replaced (1st time) and things are good again.

October 2010: One fine day suddenly the battery backup shows as 5-10 mins. only. I did the previously instructed troubleshooting (discharge and recharge). No improvement. I logged a complaint via web support chat. I was told that the support engineer would visit my place in 2 business days. I waited for almost 2 weeks (as i've been into a technical support job before and I know sometimes there can be delays, so, I thought there must be some unavoidable reason and waited). No communication from APC during this time. I contacted support again, inquiring what had happened. I got the usual reply "we apologize for the inconvenience" etc etc. But the problem was attended the same day. The engineer, suspecting voltage problems, checked the line voltage and found it to be normal. The unit was replaced (2nd time) again. New unit seemed to be working fine. But, just 3 days of normal working, and I see a new problem. When I would switch on the UPS, I would see the red led flashing and then it goes off. No power via UPS. Since my ADSL was down at that time, I called up the support number. The unit was replaced (3rd time). New unit seemed to be working fine. But, again after 2 weeks I started facing same problem (low battery backup i.e. varying between 6-13 mins.) and did the common troubleshooting again (discharge and recharge). No improvement. I logged the complaint again via web support chat (19-Nov-2010).

During 2nd replacement: I was asked to sign up for a support contract as the 2yr. warranty period was over. I asked for the pricing quote which was given to me and was planning to sign up. But I did not, as after few days I faced another problem as discussed earlier.

After 3rd replacement: I even recommended one of my friends to buy only APC UPS as it is the best brand in the market. He did buy an APC UPS on my recommendation.

Now: I am facing a problem again as discussed earlier. I do not like that APC support just replaces the unit now and then, instead of finding the root cause of these frequent failures. Thus, when I was on the chat, I asked the support agent to clarify these recurring problems with the HQ regarding this particular model and then, check whether APC considers my case as an exception and whether it would provide a solution to me even after considering the fact that my unit is no longer covered under warranty. After I logged off the support chat, I got a call from the same agent asking me whether I would be interested in signing up for the support contract. Later on, I got a call from the APC dealer who handles support in my area (the ones who replaced the unit 2nd time). I have been asked to submit a scanned copy of the invoice to them via email. I explained them too, that replacing the unit is not a solution and to check with the support team at the regional HQ regarding these problems; and to send an engineer only if APC considers this as an exception. They told me that they want the copy of the invoice for approval of the same. I'll be sending it in the morning.

All units replaced till now, seemed to be brand new. If these are the kind of issues I'd probably be facing so frequently, then why would I pay for support contract? Replacement can be the end solution. But then, even those have been failing. Thus, I came to a conclusion that it might be some kind of manufacturing glitch with this model as I read a similar post on this forum here: http://forums.apc.com/spaces/4/back-ups-surge-protectors/forums/general/5112/which-psu-should-i-get/...

1st & 3rd Replacement: done by Creative Infotech, Surat, Gujarat, India.
2nd Replacement: done by Impulz Systems, Surat, Gujarat, India.

I've attached a data file generated by PowerChute for your reference.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

============================================================
Update

20-Nov-2010: The complaint has been attended. Once again the engineer checked voltage for mains as well as the battery. It was found and reported that the battery had failed. I was given a courteous option to accept the replacement which initially I refused. As instead of replacing, I wanted a proper explanation to why this was happening with this particular model. I was put on call with the regional head for Gujarat. He assured me that I may accept this replacement as a temporary solution till the research team at Bangalore finds out more about the failed units. He also assured me that APC has always believed in satisfaction of customers. Thus, I have accepted this 4th replacement on a condition that this time the unit would not fail. I have quoted the same on the 'Site Visit Report', that this replacement is being accepted temporarily. I believe that, if APC knows about frequent problems with this particular model, the customers should be given an option to get a replacement of another model with similar features instead of the supposedly faulty model.

4th Replacement: done by Impulz Systems, Surat, Gujarat, India.

I hope that people at APC are reading this and will take apt measures to find out about these kind of problems.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

Message was edited by: vipulpradhan

[Anonymous user]

Thank you Rob/Clarkson,

What I am worried about is, will the replaced unit work properly now! (Hope it does)

A senior engineer from Impulz Systems, Surat is expected to visit my place tomorrow. To check things. Will update you on the same.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

=============================================================
Update
23-Nov-2010: The senior engineer who also happens to handle Impulz Systems (Support), Surat visited in the afternoon. He checked the status with both units i.e. the old one (which was replaced 2 days back with new one) and the new one (currently with me), noted the observations (same as mentioned before) and reported to the regional office. He said they'll get back to me.

Message was edited by: vipulpradhan

[Anonymous user]

hi
u r the mouth fuccer son of a bitch bec u dont no how to operate the ups of these kind i no that u have been using this products but nothing is good i think u should go for this purpose turn your dick and take in your ass tc

[Techie_apc]

Hi Vipul,

I understand that you have changed the Power Supply of your Computer with 500 Watts SMPS. If possible, could you please let us know the total load(which are connected to the battery backup outlets) Power Consumption in Watts? You can see the Load Power Consumption in Watts through APC Power Chute Personal Edition software. I am sure that you are using the PCPE software to monitor the UPS. How much is the runtime are you getting from the UPS during power failure? What is your expected runtime? What is the PCPE-Runtime strategy setting you have set through Configuration-Runtime?

Based on your comments, I believe that the replacement of the same UPS model is not the solution for your requirement. I believe that you should size the UPS according to your runtime requirement depending upon the load Power Consumption.

Message was edited by: Techie

[Anonymous user]

Hi Bala,

Well, the load most of the time does not touch even half way i.e. <195 in my case. Though I do rarely see it shooting to around 60% for a second or two. I would need atleast 15-20mins. of runtime which I have been always getting with normal working units as stated previously.

Kindly check the attached screenshots for your reference.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

FaultyUPS_19112010_2.jpg : Thats the runtime strategy I use.
WorkingUPS_30112010_1.jpg : Thats the range (encircled) of load the PCPE shows, and is less than the 195 mark and always around 130-140W.

[Techie_apc]

Hi Vipul,

Thanks for the update and the details. The BE650Y-IN provides an estimated runtime of 13 minutes at 195 Watts and 21 mins at 140 Watts of load according to the runtime chart which is available on the APC website. As you see on the PCPE software, the UPS is provided the expected runtime. It also states that the runtime measurement which is mentioned on the web taken with new, fully charged battery at typical environmental conditions. There are many factors which can reduce the UPS runtime during its use.

Temperature-The temperature of the battery within its environment will affect its capacity and therefore the available runtime.
Age of the battery-A new battery will only reach its optimum capacity after a two or three discharge and charge cycles. plus as it ages its capacity will decrease, typically down to approximately 80% at the end of its life.
The frequency and depth of discharge cycles
etc.,

Based on my experience, the runtime of the BE650Y-IN will be 10 minutes at 200 Watts of load after the new battery has been used for 4/5 months even with 1 power outage per day. By looking at your comments, I believe that the solution for your runtime requirement is to choose a model which is higher than this UPS. I recommend you to go for either BR800-IN or BR1100CI-IN which will solve your problem by considering the load 200 Watts.

Have a nice day!

[Anonymous user]

Hi Bala,

The response you posted is nothing new, and is just an observation and typical norms which can be found on APC website. And why are you trying to divert from the actual problem?

Are you a support person or a sales person?

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

[upsguy_apc]

You are failing to understand the response given. At 195w this UPS should have approx 13min of run time.

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE650Y-IN

So looking at your screenshot you have spent 1day 3hrs on battery in a 4 wk period. That equals 4 deep discharges per day at the 13min discharge rate of a 195w load. Having exercised your battery that much you will see a performance drop off over time which is typical of any battery.

If you require more than 13min of runtime at your current load you require a larger UPS as the UPS you currently are showing as faulty appears to be operating correctly.

[Anonymous user]

Dear Brian,

Kindly read the whole story if you havent. I have specified that it is NOT 195W of usage. So, the question of me wanting more and UPS giving less does not arise as I was and I am getting proper backup with normal working units. My usage (which shows in PCPE) from the very beginning (since Oct. 2008) has been around 130-140W as per my observations.
As far as I understand, data regarding the observations is stored in the PC and not in the UPS. Thus, the 4 week period of time also includes the data coming from previous faulty UPSes. As for the batteries and power related things, I might be low on knowledge but not with my experience. If there is something that I am not able to understand according to you, please explain it to me in simplest terms. I'll really appreciate that.

Thanks & Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

[Techie_apc]

Dear Vipul,

My aim is to resolve your problem. My intention is not to sell the unit.
How many minutes of runtime are you getting on battery mode for 140 Watts of load at 100 % battery charge level?

[Anonymous user]

Hi Bala,

As stated earlier, I am getting around 15-20mins. of runtime on battery backup.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

[Techie_apc]

The runtime which you are getting from the replacement unit is normal for the load since the power strategy setting is set to Keep My computer on as long as possible 5 mins. The runtime will be degrading over time due to many factors.

[Anonymous user]

Hi Bala,

The runtime will be degrading over time due to many factors.
Agreed. But just within a few days/weeks?

1. What factors could degrade the runtime?
2. How would you explain recent failures (as stated before) that I have faced?
3. Do you think that I have selected the proper UPS model?
4. What precautions do you recommend if similar problems happen with someone using APC products?

The thing is, I am finding it difficult to come to terms with what has happened over last 2 months. If I do not get a satisfactory reply from within this forum, I'll be really disappointed with APC.

I know that you want to resolve this. But I am being asked questions by you, which I think I have clarified before. Thus, I had made some undesirable comments to you.

Anyways, I'll be giving you any/all co-operation to you that I can, regarding this matter.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

[Anonymous user]

So many days gone by... No reply on this issue... Is something happening about the so called promises to check with 'so and so' and get back...!!!

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan

[Techie_apc]

I am sorry for the delay as I have been travelling for the last couple of days. The answer to your question is to go through the APC document which has got the recommendations to get the longest life from your battery. You can access the document in the below link:

http://jpaa-en.apc.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/11083/kw/battery%20care/session/L3RpbWUvMTI5Mjk5MzYwM...

have a nice day!

[Anonymous user]

Curiously, I have the same experience as Vipul. I purchased a BE650Y-IN in August, 2010. In April, 2011 I found that backup time has reduced to ❤️ min inspite of battery having full charge (load 140-165W). I called up APC service and they replaced my unit in May, 2011. Last week i again had the <3min backup issue, and, yesterday the unit just would not switch on. When I start it amber led flashes and then red led keeps flashing (no beeping). I have contacted service center, but, to be frank I am considering getting a different UPS.

[Anonymous user · Accepted solution]

Hi Bala,

I do follow all precautions as stated.

I am sorry, but I must say that I am not getting any satisfactory reply from you. I have better things to do.

APC has disappointed me on this forum.

It seems that APC is interested in just replacing the faulty units and move on. Who cares what the actual problem might be.

Regards,
Vipul Pradhan