Need warranty details on batteries shipped with units

[Anonymous user]

As far as I know, the battery installed in the unit at the time of purchase is warranted throughout the duration of the unit's warranty.

The warranty on cell phones and such often stipulate something like "battery is considered in warranty replacement when capacity falls below 50% of original capacity during the warranty period".

What is the specific details on warranty coverage on batteries installed in the unit? For example, if the unit was rated to provide 25min at 300W load, but a year and half into your warranty, you realize the battery only provides power for 5 minutes at exactly 300W, at which point the unit's performance does not significantly conform to original specs.

[BillP]

thanks, we appreciate the business and positive comments.

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

KVar,

That's an excellent question, why it hasn't been raised before, IDK. I know on the single-phase symmetra side of things, we're attempting to decrease the number of batteries that are sent out purely due to the fact that they did their job. On the Back-UPS/Smart-UPS side of things, which I'm sure is what your question is geared entirely towards, I don't believe such policy is in place. There are far less issues that are categorized as "customer mishandling" with those two product lines as opposed to the aforementioned Symmetra. One example is you cannot leave a Back-UPS in bypass for 3 months and let the batteries discharge til a component comes in which will allow you to bring the UPS back online. Personally, I've never had a problem with replacing a Back-UPS battery that has failed or provided less than desired runtime. But I think the general rule is if it passes a self-test without the replace battery LED coming on. Then the battery's still sufficient.

[Anonymous user]

Here's a very plausible scenario:

Small family owned merchant with slow inventory turnover sells a customer a UPS that sat in inventory for over a year. Customer takes the UPS home, it passed the test, but sulfation on batteries have progressed to the point that the batteries no longer provide the rated capacity. Self test passes, but the runtime is 1/2 the spec capacity.

I'm not going to take "we won't replace it unless it fails the self test" non-sense. Just as you would not take "there's nothing wrong with your car and we really can't do anything unless there's a code in the computer" if you're getting 1/2 the rated mileage consistently and other owners are getting far better mileage.

If the runtime does not significantly conform to specs, then the product fails to perform as marketed.

In the case that was posted in the other area of the forum who purchased it two years ago and stored it unused for two years and realized the battery was cooked beyond use. I don't believe it's a common consumer knowledge like milk will spoil if you leave it at room temperature even before expiration date that the batteries used in APC UPSs become destroyed if kept in storage too long. Even though the warehouse shelf life of SLA batteries is shorter than most canned food items, UPSs don't even come with expiration dates before being put in service.

I've seen quite a few I"I just took my Smart/BackUPS after it's been in storage (for years) and it doesn't work!" threads here. A simple warning like "PLUG-IN IMMEDIATELY AFTER PURCHASE AND CHARGE OVERNIGHT" and "must plug in every 3 months overnight to prevent battery damage" would in my opinion prevent a lot of unnecessary battery damage.


iPods and UPSs are similar in a way that they have a self contained power source to supply power when there is no utility power available. Apple makes it very clear in warranty that 50% of rated capacity is the threshold for defective battery during warranty period.
http://www.apple.com/batteries/replacements.html

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

While I agree wholeheartedly with a few of your points, there are some that I would have to negate, or at least, provide you my thoughts on.

For the family owned-merchant. This is why APC has the channel program. This merchant would have no choice to be anything but an APC reseller, who would have to buy direct from a distributor. Therefore, there's no way unless they're selling APC products without proper authorization, for said customer to receive a UPS that is a year old (I'm not saying it can't happen, but it won't happen that way. There have been instances of distributors not rotating their stock, for which they are held accountable).

Whether you agree with the Self-Test comment or not, that's neither here nor there. Take that as a larger-scale scenario. Your battery fails for doing it's job. We both have no qualms about that. It dies because it operated on battery too many times, and did what it's supposed to do. Now you call APC support and they say no because it's a discharged battery, it did what it was designed to do, and that exhausted batteries aren't covered by warranty. Now pretend that that battery belongs in your car, and you called GM, not APC. APC at least wouldn't make you feel incompetent for thinking that just because you purchased a 100k mile powertrain warranty, your battery is in no way shape or form covered under that, because it's normal wear & tear.

While I will agree with you that there needs to be clearer documentation, I can only pass that information to product engineers (who are monitoring these boards, just not quite as frequently as myself and others), to hope that they can adjust that. Unless I am in that position myself, I cannot make that change. The other side of the other thread about the XS1200 is that the replace battery is not solid, it's flashing. Indicating that the battery is either completely exhausted, or a component has failed. I'm sure you've seen these cases yourself. Instead of wasting $40+ of the customer's money in attempts that the battery MAY actually be the cause of the problem, we're trying to create as little downtime as possible.

Please understand that these are theories and practices discussed between myself and other APC employees. They are not written in stone, however, some of the theories and practices aren't as far-fetched as other, and the implementation of them make sense to all parties involved.

[Anonymous user]

The Notorious K.M.P. wrote:
While I agree wholeheartedly with a few of your points, there are some that I would have to negate, or at least, provide you my thoughts on.

For the family owned-merchant. This is why APC has the channel program. This merchant would have no choice to be anything but an APC reseller, who would have to buy direct from a distributor. Therefore, there's no way unless they're selling APC products without proper authorization, for said customer to receive a UPS that is a year old (I'm not saying it can't happen, but it won't happen that way. There have been instances of distributors not rotating their stock, for which they are held accountable).

Whether you agree with the Self-Test comment or not, that's neither here nor there. Take that as a larger-scale scenario. Your battery fails for doing it's job. We both have no qualms about that. It dies because it operated on battery too many times, and did what it's supposed to do. Now you call APC support and they say no because it's a discharged battery, it did what it was designed to do, and that exhausted batteries aren't covered by warranty. Now pretend that that battery belongs in your car, and you called GM, not APC. APC at least wouldn't make you feel incompetent for thinking that just because you purchased a 100k mile powertrain warranty, your battery is in no way shape or form covered under that, because it's normal wear & tear.

The day APC becomes nitpicky about exclusions is the day I stop recommending buying new APC UPSs. When you buy a power train warranty, it is pretty clear that the warranty is specific extension for power train only, so it's rather clear the battery won't be covered.

Now for "It was used too much" what's too much? Car maintenance schedule often gives two sets of schedule and one is for normal driving and the other for severe service. Interestingly, they usually define city driving "severe service". Customer shows he followed the recommended schedule. Dealer says he didn't on the ground "we consider your usage severe service, so it's maintenance issue".

While I will agree with you that there needs to be clearer documentation, I can only pass that information to product engineers (who are monitoring these boards, just not quite as frequently as myself and others), to hope that they can adjust that. Unless I am in that position myself, I cannot make that change. The other side of the other thread about the XS1200 is that the replace battery is not solid, it's flashing. Indicating that the battery is either completely exhausted, or a component has failed. I'm sure you've seen these cases yourself. Instead of wasting $40+ of the customer's money in attempts that the battery MAY actually be the cause of the problem, we're trying to create as little downtime as possible.

Please understand that these are theories and practices discussed between myself and other APC employees. They are not written in stone, however, some of the theories and practices aren't as far-fetched as other, and the implementation of them make sense to all parties involved.

The peace of mind of "if anything goes wrong during 3 yrs they'll fix it" was one of the justifications for going APC. If they take that away... well... I've lost faith. Seeing that battery is usually the first thing to go wrong, if APC starts being conditional about battery warranty, then there's really no advantage over buying reconditioned used units.

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

I don't think you have much to worry about. While I was discussing that, I also briefly mentioned that it was mainly geared towards single-phase Symmetra and 3-phase products.

I don't see the 3-year bumper to bumper going away at all. The difference in like I said earlier, a $30 battery vs. a $500 battery on the LX side, is a huge difference.

I like to think of at the very least, the Back-UPS line being Ron Popeil esque in that you can just Set it and Forget it.

[Anonymous user]

I just finished with APC support via chat. I explained the problem and added the fact that with only a 200 watt light bulb attached, the battery run time was only 6 minutes instead of the estimated 38 minutes for a BX1300LCD with 200w load.

They have agreed to replace the units as DOA.

[Anonymous user]

I just bought 2 BX1300LCD units from Circuit City today. To my dismay, when I opened the units the Quality assurance test dates were 12/23/2006 for one and 12/7/2007 for the other one. I checked voltage on all 4 batteries individually. 12.5v 12.0v 11.9v 11.5v

I have 2 open support tickets to address this issue. I hope APC will exchange the batteries.

[Anonymous user]

I'd like to see some clarification myself on this issue as we are
experiencing EXACTLY the scenario that KVAr proposes

In Februrary, we purchased 4 APC units for a workstation upgrade
(BE500U-CN) a few days ago, we had a power failure during which
3 of the 4 units failed to provide backup power

We filed a support ticket but in the meantime, purchased a BR900
to protect our primary server and RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX, the
battery was non-functional.

So, the question is, warranty or not, the customer is really in a bad
spot no matter which way you slice it....SHIPPING the defective units
costs more than the replacement, so whether it is returned to the retailer (if they will accept them this late in the game, probably not)
or RMA'd, the units will have cost (at least) twice the original amount
plus the risk of not having the data protected, plus the aggravation of
having to get support for these units...

As stated previously, there is no point in running the "quality assurance test" before shipping the product if the information is only
valid for a short window of time

Having said that, a "best before" date on the OUTSIDE of the box
should be a requirement... At least then, the customer could refuse
delivery on old inventory, even without opening and installing the device.

Once the box is open, it becomes the customer's problem, not APC's
or the retailers...really not a fair way to play this out.

[TheNotoriousKMP_apc]

Mike,

I apologize for the delay in a response. As I noticed on the slip, the QA test was performed in 02/07. You purchased the UPS in 02/08? That means your retailer had it sitting on their shelf or in stock for over a year. Who's the retailer? Almost all of APC's distribution chains and authorized retailers are required to rotate stock so that something like this doesn't occur.

[Anonymous user]

No problem, just happy to get some answers and develop some effective best practices regarding power backups

All the APC units were purchased from Staples/Business Depot online

I'm currently working with a support ticket to see if the units can be salvaged....

IMO, the main problem is really, really, really BAD documentation

The instructions don't deal with any pre-installation steps and aren't
very specific about details like charging with power button ON vs. OFF
steps for self tests, etc

It also doesn't mention issues about shelf-life of batteries, or that the
units must be plugged in within a specific time period after purchasing
etc.

So, in the absence of any additional details, from the directions given on the start-up sheet, the user would be led to believe that it is okay to
just connect the battery, plug in the mains and attach the devices to be protected

Then, a few months later, they get my experience.

So, a little more effort to rationalize the directions for use would be
time well spent, since a great number of questions posted to support
revolve around disappointing battery life and the subsequent ecological
hazard and increasing expense that replacing lead-based batteries pose.

thanks

Mike

PS a GREAT place to put critical reminders would be
ON THE BATTERYitself, where it is unlikely to be missed and would be seen BEFORE the unit can be used for the first time




Mike,

I apologize for the delay in a response. As I noticed on the slip, the QA test was performed in 02/07. You purchased the UPS in 02/08? That means your retailer had it sitting on their shelf or in stock for over a year. Who's the retailer? Almost all of APC's distribution chains and authorized retailers are required to rotate stock so that something like this doesn't occur.

[Anonymous user]

Good news. My new replacement units arrived. They are only 12 weeks old. The batteries had voltages of 12.7v before I charged them. (Almost full).

So ACP took care of Circuit City selling me old, stale stock.


THANK YOU APC.

[Anonymous user]

The battery in a UPS that has degraded due to excessive storage is a total loss. It might "work", but it can not be brought back to intended performance.

Stagnant inventory in supply chain is all too common and it is not a common knowledge that a UPS is a perishable product with a limited shelf life.

APC should be able to cross-ship a replacement and pay the return freight. Call the support #.

[BillP]

I bought a new SUA1500 less than a week ago and the "Quality Assurance Test" slip is dated May 2008. Is this something I should contact APC about or is 6 months a reasonable time for the battery to have been sitting around before use? Perhaps I should perform the light test.

Thank you.

[Cap1_apc · Accepted solution]

Hi,

Your battery is probably fine. I responded to one of your other posts about a pull plug test - this is your best option (aside from installing Powerchute software) to quickly see how the UPS reacts to an outage.