Just curious question on apc unit and battery charging in off mode

[Anonymous user]

Well, here is my story.... I have a UPS 1100 model and use it to protect my stereo and tv equipment. This unit kept chirping and a red change battery light kept coming on about 2 years ago... fine... so I went down to my local battery warehouse and got replacement batteries for it. It has been fine for about 2 years since that change out... well about 2 months ago the unit started chirping again... ok, i thought it was to short of time to be needing replacements again and we did have some bad power recently... dropouts, brown outs etc.... Well, when i would turn off the unit with the front button, and turn it back on (no power on to plugged in equip) the unit would come back on... do a check.. then go green light again... ok.. i thought maybe it needed to just be recycled... It stayed green for about a week and then started redlight again... I reset and green... then several days redlight.. this went on for about 3 months... Well, this last week of January we decided to go on a vacation for about 9 days and so I turned off all my UPS's (I have several) using the front panel button... Here is where the story gets weird. After 2 days post trip, I noticed some strange smells in my house. Just short wifts of something that did not smell normal... I chalked it up to a candle (chocolate scented) that was on our kitchen counter... I kept noticing smells off and on for a couple of days after that... never could pin point the source... well, Yesterday, when i came home the smell was a little stonger and it actually had a slight sulfur smell to it but bordered on a fart smell... humm... i looked around and could not seem to pin point where it was coming from.. (wasn't me). well all that night i kept getting small wifts of this smell as i walked around, when the heater would come on etc... and just before bed, my wife suddenly noticed it as well ... we looked together... It turned out that the smell was eminating from my stereo system area where the (still powered off) UPS was sitting. I reached down to touch it and it was extreamly hot to the touch... almost a burn on my hand.... I got some golves on and pulled it out and the smell was extreamly stong odor... I unplugged the unit from the wall, then opened the battery case and saw that the batteries were extreamly deformed. I was shocked to see how HOT the batteries were and could not handle them by hand without gloves on.

My concern is why was this unit still powering the batteries when the unit was off? Is the smell from the batteries harmful to our health... the reason i asked this is my wife has been having some strange night time belching and thowing up episodes over the last 6 months so i am wondering if the battery gasses may have been contributing to her sickness during the night.. maybe the gasses were present but just not stong enough until just recently... I don't know what the effects of smelling battery acid gasses would have on the human body? Next, Is my UPS bad and overcharging the batteries? or Is it just the batteries that may have been old shorting out or something? How do I check the ups to see if it is faulty before spending more money on another ups or replacement batteries? There should be a warning on the UPS's that states that when going on vacation the UPS should be OFF and UNplugged from the outlet to prevent fire or explosion... Has anyone else have this issue?

[BillP]

First: I have no medical expertise at all, so I won't even begin to venture about medical conditions, but you can find the safety sheets on the batteries here. Maybe that could help you decide in terms of how you and your wife would like to proceed getting a medical opinion.

Yes, the unit will charge the batteries as long as it is plugged into an outlet. Most of the installation manuals state when charging occurs. In fact, the [BP1100|http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V5G_R0_EN.pdf] manual states: "The UPS charges its battery whenever it is connected to utility power." On that note, I suspect people wouldn't be happy to realize their batteries are dead due to lack of charging after leaving the unit powered off while on vacation, either!

Regardless, the unit was clearly trying to warn you about needing a replacement battery for 3 months. Under normal operation, you're free to leave the UPS turned on AND plugged in at all times, even if you're going on vacation. It will work just fine. But using it in a faulted state - which includes a bad battery - isn't exactly recommended.

Once the replace battery light comes on, you're usually fine for a few weeks, but at that point the batteries are decaying and susceptible to overheating and venting. As long as you leave that dead battery in there, the UPS will attempt to charge it (since it's just doing what it's told). Charging produces heat, but dead batteries don't hold much charge. It becomes a cycle of increasing heat, which causes the gases inside the battery to expand and, eventually, leak out of the battery casing.

In terms of what you want to replace, that's up to you. Your UPS is most likely fine, though I'm not sure how old it is so there could be some typical wear and tear from years of use - typically you should consider replacing the UPS after 7-10 years. And you can't really test it without a battery.

[Anonymous user]

Well, here is my story.... I have a UPS 1100 model and use it to protect my stereo and tv equipment. This unit kept chirping and a red change battery light kept coming on about 2 years ago... fine... so I went down to my local battery warehouse and got replacement batteries for it. It has been fine for about 2 years since that change out... well about 2 months ago the unit started chirping again... ok, i thought it was to short of time to be needing replacements again and we did have some bad power recently... dropouts, brown outs etc.... Well, when i would turn off the unit with the front button, and turn it back on (no power on to plugged in equip) the unit would come back on... do a check.. then go green light again... ok.. i thought maybe it needed to just be recycled... It stayed green for about a week and then started redlight again... I reset and green... then several days redlight.. this went on for about 3 months... Well, this last week of January we decided to go on a vacation for about 9 days and so I turned off all my UPS's (I have several) using the front panel button... Here is where the story gets weird. After 2 days post trip, I noticed some strange smells in my house. Just short wifts of something that did not smell normal... I chalked it up to a candle (chocolate scented) that was on our kitchen counter... I kept noticing smells off and on for a couple of days after that... never could pin point the source... well, Yesterday, when i came home the smell was a little stonger and it actually had a slight sulfur smell to it but bordered on a fart smell... humm... i looked around and could not seem to pin point where it was coming from.. (wasn't me). well all that night i kept getting small wifts of this smell as i walked around, when the heater would come on etc... and just before bed, my wife suddenly noticed it as well ... we looked together... It turned out that the smell was eminating from my stereo system area where the (still powered off) UPS was sitting. I reached down to touch it and it was extreamly hot to the touch... almost a burn on my hand.... I got some golves on and pulled it out and the smell was extreamly stong odor... I unplugged the unit from the wall, then opened the battery case and saw that the batteries were extreamly deformed. I was shocked to see how HOT the batteries were and could not handle them by hand without gloves on.

My concern is why was this unit still powering the batteries when the unit was off? Is the smell from the batteries harmful to our health... the reason i asked this is my wife has been having some strange night time belching and thowing up episodes over the last 6 months so i am wondering if the battery gasses may have been contributing to her sickness during the night.. maybe the gasses were present but just not stong enough until just recently... I don't know what the effects of smelling battery acid gasses would have on the human body? Next, Is my UPS bad and overcharging the batteries? or Is it just the batteries that may have been old shorting out or something? How do I check the ups to see if it is faulty before spending more money on another ups or replacement batteries? There should be a warning on the UPS's that states that when going on vacation the UPS should be OFF and UNplugged from the outlet to prevent fire or explosion... Has anyone else have this issue?

[Anonymous user]

I thought about all that... if things are designed conservatively, 10yrs seems a little short...

HOWEVER, tonight I've been messing with my SU1000XL and I've come to find that some design mistakes just never go away.

I fixed a couple of samsung monitors that failed to provide proper thermal design needs causing some 'lytics to get baked and eventually die.

This SU1000XL is out on the bench completely out of box... and while it's been charging another battery set up I find the transformer seems to play a role in the current path back to the batteries during charging.

That transformer is really hot.. I didn't probe it - but I feel enough parts to know when something is above 40'C -- and it wouldn't surprise me if this was hotter than that.

Also, the 2 largest caps on the board (electrolytic cans) are mounted right next to a heatsink which is also roasty hot.

Couple all this with the fact that the PCB is mounted OVER the plane of heat generation and you have a board sitting in a heat soaker. Considering the fan comes on, but not unless the system is really hot (and I haven't look hard for the sensor yet) this is a setup for failure.

Also, couple that transformer to the metal framing (to try and dissipate heat) and I bet the batteries pick up a bit of this too since the frame is sleeved with the outer chassis case.

(shaking head) I never bothered to really fully disassmble one of these before... but now I see.

This is a recipe for disaster. No wonder these units fail over time. They're designed to.

I guess that answers that.

[Anonymous user]

Hahah! No.... but I have been contemplating how to keep the compact size while improving thermal dissipation.

And while I understand WHY APC did some of the things they did from a mechanical standpoint, a few years of units out in the field would have shown the design to accelerate the overall deterioration of the product. That's kinda of anti-consumer. You'd want to build the best product you can and it doesn't seem like they've evolved at all in terms of these particular units. I might take apart my rack mount units to see what's going on in there.

In the meantime:

* They could have put the PCB out of the way of the thermal plane. Right now, the design BAKES the board.
* The batteries have no breathing space and they're snugged up against the warm walls of the chassis while that transformer .
* Some of the better chargers I've seen use a remote temp sensor to confirm or emergency-stop the charge process to prevent the very bulging/breaching problem I see so regularly with APC UPS's. That Temp sensor could also warn of a bad pack without having to do a self test from the panel or via software.

The fact that these are Smart-UPS models (with a microcontroller) -- all of this would have been easy to monitor. The fact that it's not seems kind of lazy.

Oh well. For now, I'll just be evaluating other brands of UPS's to see who's got the smarter battery charging/monitoring and go from there.

UPDATE: In playing with this - I think the primary thing APC could do now that would solve these problems would be to ...

*: Temperature sensing for the battery pack. With an over-temp, shut down the charging and fail the battery (indicate on panel)
*: Key up the fan more often than what appears to be happening now. The system seems to require being on battery (AC loss) or REALLY freakin hot. Let's try just "hot" instead.

Yep. Designed for failure.

[Anonymous user]

Buzz says: In terms of what you want to replace, that's up to you. Your UPS is most likely fine, though I'm not sure how old it is so there could be some typical wear and tear from years of use - typically you should consider replacing the UPS after 7-10 years. And you can't really test it without a battery.


I'd really like to know why that is.

I've spoken with APC support before and it's pretty much like talking to my cat. The responses are cute and interesting but completely off topic and/or irrelevant. APC usual just parrots their "replacement" policy... and that's that.

Why can't a solid-state/digital UPS that's properly designed function for longer than 7-10 yrs. (besides arcing in the transfer relays -- unrelated to charging or over-charging problems)

No one has ever been able to explain to me which parts in there "go bad".

Of late, I've become extremely suspicious of APC's on-UPS firmware that could very well be designed with "obsolescence" in mind.

If someone can give me real factual information as to what exactly goes wrong in these, I'd love to hear it.

So far, I've heard nothing more than speculation.

-Ben

[voidstar_apc · Accepted solution]

>
Why can't a solid-state/digital UPS that's properly designed function for longer than 7-10 yrs. (besides arcing in the transfer relays -- unrelated to charging or over-charging problems)
>

It possibly could, but it would cost more. Off the top of my head, the relays, the capacitors, the EEPROM, the LEDs (although I've never personally seen one of these fail) and the MOVs have a finite life expectancy. Ideally the rest of the system only needs to last until one of these components fail.

It reminds me of [The Deacon's Masterpiece|http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/1028.html], a one horse shay designed so well that all of its components failed on the same day.