F01 battery overload issue in my APC Back-UPS XS 1500 (model: BX1500G) from today's power outage...

[ant_apc]

Hello.

After 9:00 AM PDT this morning, the planned almost all day power outage occurred. I was away in the kitchen from my room when the power outage struck. After a minute of walking fast back to my room to check to manually shut down my two old desktop PCs, it was too late. I heard a loud nonstop beep from the old APC Back-UPS XS 1500 (model: BX1500G) UPS (started using on 8/27/2012 and battery's date shows 5/17/2012); that was still running including its loud fan. I also saw the UPS' front small status screen saying F01.

According to my quick Google searches and manual, F01 means On-Battery Overload. How is that possible if there were no problems with flowing power from my room's wall outlet? It seems to only happen when there is no power from the wall outlet. Is 400 watts (45% load from two desktop PCs + a 23.6" 1080 LED widescreen monitor -- see http://zimage.com/~ant/antfarm/about/MyComputerStuff.txt for the full details) too much for the old battery? Do I need a new one?

I tried running PowerChute Personal Edition v3.0.2's tests with it after my power was restored. No problems.

Thank you in advance. 🙂

[BillP]

hi Ant , your battery has more than 5 years , the recommendation is change them every 3 or 4 years maximum , probably the  F01 error came from bad batteries .

when you change them don't forget to put in powerchute the new date of batteries , 

regards,

[ant_apc]

On 9/26/2017 6:40 AM, Cristian said:

hi Ant , your battery has more than 5 years , the recommendation is change them every 3 or 4 years maximum , probably the  F01 error came from bad batteries .

If the batteries are bad, then shouldn't had its tests failed from both UPS' automatic internal and Windows' PowerChute's tests?

[BillP]

probably they are not totally dead , but when the batteries are old the acid inside them starts to dry causing it to short-circuit in the battery or fail to deliver voltage ramdomly , so maybe the test don't detect it yet , but soon it will do , 

[ant_apc]

OK, I did some brief testings this morning with my UPS since I could reproduce the issue easily:

Total watts used by 2 PCs + 1 monitor = ~425 (UPS failed with F01 overload & battery shutdown)

Linux/Debian PC + 1 monitor = ~113 watts (UPS stayed up & battery power working)

Windows PC + 1 monitor = ~324 watts (UPS failed with F01 overload & battery shut down)

So my Windows desktop PC is sucking up a lot of battery power for UPS to fail. 😞 So a new battery will fix this problem?

[BillP]

in the mostly of cases is the old battery that cant support the load yes,

[ant_apc]

On 9/27/2017 12:43 PM, Cristian said:

in the mostly of cases is the old battery that cant support the load yes,

Thanks. I'll plan to buy a new APC RBC124 UPS Replacement Battery Cartridge for my APC Back-UPS XS 1500G BX1500G from https://smile.amazon.com/APC-APCRBC124-Replacement-Cartridge-SMC1000-2U/dp/B004F08NSM for $55.45 soon (apc.com web site shows it $70 and out of stock! :(). 🙂

Also, I ran more tests from PowerChute after fixing its misdetections of my UPS model as shown in my http://forums.apc.com/spaces/4/back-ups-surge-protectors/forums/general/81530/how-do-i-reset-apc-pow... forum thread.  I noticed UPS took longer to do its tests. They passed again with both connected PCs and 1 monitor. FYI:

Model:                    Back-UPS XS 1500G
Serial number:                4B1220[deleted the rest]
Firmware revision:            866.L6.D
Software version:            PowerChute Personal Edition 3.0.2
Date of last manual self-test:        9/27/2017
Result of last manual self-test:    Passed
RAM:                    5.99 GB
Free disk space:            1565.70 GB

[ant_apc]

OK, I got the battery replaced but how do I know how old these are? I saw no labels or anything on them. 😞

I also just tested its new battery by unplugging its power AC cable from the wall outlet after replacing it almost 12 hours later. No battery overload and shut down like the old battery. Now, I will need to recycle the old battery by dropping off at a local store soon.

[BillP]

you can know the exactly date of the batteries normally for serial number , you need to ask the maker, he will tell to you how to read the serial number of them , 

regards,

[ant_apc]

On 10/9/2017 7:07 AM, Cristian said:

you can know the exactly date of the batteries normally for serial number , you need to ask the maker, he will tell to you how to read the serial number of them , ...

Thanks. I got the answer from my new http://forums.apc.com/spaces/4/back-ups-surge-protectors/forums/general/81744/how-do-i-know-how-old-... forum thread. 🙂

[ant_apc]

Bad news! I just had a few minutes real power outage about 40 minutes ago, but my UPS failed to keep both my PCs up again (their shared monitor was powered off for the night)!  I only had the new battery for over two months! Why did it degrade so fast? Do I need a new UPS instead? 😞

[ant_apc]

Here's a battery photo(graph) from October 2017's replacement from https://www.amazon.com/APC-APCRBC124-Replacement-Cartridge-SMC1000-2U/dp/B004F08NSM (Amazon seller). Assuming I am reading its labels correctly, is it 1726 from the bottom white labels which is 26th week of 2017 which is about three months old when it was ordered? If so, then isn't that already old? I retested again, and it still failed even with 300 watts from that full tower Windows PC even without its monitor on. 😞

r

[ant_apc]

So, no suggestions? 😞

[voidstar_apc]

You want a battery that is less than six months old (or has been kept charged), so three months should be fine. At this point I'd call APC, especially if you bought a genuine APC battery. Contact details here:

http://www.apc.com/us/en/support/contact-us/index.jsp

[ant_apc]

On 12/27/2017 10:07 PM, voidstar said:

You want a battery that is less than six months old (or has been kept charged), so three months should be fine. At this point I'd call APC, especially if you bought a genuine APC battery. Contact details here:

http://www.apc.com/us/en/support/contact-us/index.jsp

Yea, I sent an e-mail to APC last week and still waiting. I think they are slow with the holidays going on. 😞

[ant_apc]

A friend told me that over 50% load is considered an overload. Is that true? My UPS' power load is under 50% though. 😕

[voidstar_apc]

Over 100% is overload. Max power consumption can usually be found written on the back of equipment (in amps) near its power supply. Actual consumption depends on usage -- ie, gaming vs word processing.

[ant_apc]

On 12/30/2017 12:58 PM, voidstar said:

Over 100% is overload. Max power consumption can usually be found written on the back of equipment (in amps) near its power supply. Actual consumption depends on usage -- ie, gaming vs word processing.

So my UPS shouldn't have any problems with 50% power load as shown on its screen. I tested when idling. Gaming would go up to 500 watts.

[voidstar_apc]

I'd say if the rating on the power supply is <865W, you should be fine. At the moment of power failure, some power supplies can start drawing their max rated load in an attempt to keep up their bus capacitors filled as the voltage drops. Another factor is age of the power supply -- those power supply capacitors can deteriorate and not provide enough hold-up before the UPS kicks in.

[ant_apc]

On 1/1/2018 10:23 PM, voidstar said:

I'd say if the rating on the power supply is <865W, you should be fine. At the moment of power failure, some power supplies can start drawing their max rated load in an attempt to keep up their bus capacitors filled as the voltage drops. Another factor is age of the power supply -- those power supply capacitors can deteriorate and not provide enough hold-up before the UPS kicks in.

Is replacing the power supply easy inside an UPS like PCs? If so, then where can those be ordered? Still strange how the replaced battery worked once when I did a manual test a day later.

Maybe this will give more clues if useful at all:

$ /sbin/apcaccess
APC      : 001,036,0866
DATE     : 2018-01-02 02:07:43 -0800
HOSTNAME : MyLinuxBox
VERSION  : 3.14.12 (29 March 2014) debian
UPSNAME  : MyLinuxBox
CABLE    : USB Cable
DRIVER   : USB UPS Driver
UPSMODE  : Stand Alone
STARTTIME: 2017-12-20 14:42:28 -0800
MODEL    : Back-UPS XS 1500G
STATUS   : ONLINE
LINEV    : 120.0 Volts
LOADPCT  : 42.0 Percent
BCHARGE  : 100.0 Percent
TIMELEFT : 14.7 Minutes
MBATTCHG : 5 Percent
MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes
MAXTIME  : 0 Seconds
SENSE    : Medium
LOTRANS  : 88.0 Volts
HITRANS  : 139.0 Volts
ALARMDEL : 30 Seconds
BATTV    : 27.0 Volts
LASTXFER : No transfers since turnon
NUMXFERS : 0
TONBATT  : 0 Seconds
CUMONBATT: 0 Seconds
XOFFBATT : N/A
SELFTEST : NO
STATFLAG : 0x05000008
SERIALNO : 4B1220P[deleted]
BATTDATE : 2017-10-07
NOMINV   : 120 Volts
NOMBATTV : 24.0 Volts
NOMPOWER : 865 Watts
FIRMWARE : 866.L6 .D USB FW:L6
END APC  : 2018-01-02 02:08:02 -0800

This is with two PCs + one monitor.

[voidstar_apc]

On 1/2/2018 5:00 AM, Ant said:

Is replacing the power supply easy inside an UPS like PCs?

I was referring to the PC's power supply.

Agreed -- it's interesting that the replacement battery worked when doing a manual test, and two months later you got the F01 error. It might be worth trying a manual test again to see if there's a difference between manually testing and a power failure.

[ant_apc]

On 1/2/2018 11:24 AM, voidstar said:

On 1/2/2018 5:00 AM, Ant said:

Is replacing the power supply easy inside an UPS like PCs?

I was referring to the PC's power supply.

Agreed -- it's interesting that the replacement battery worked when doing a manual test, and two months later you got the F01 error. It might be worth trying a manual test again to see if there's a difference between manually testing and a power failure.

Oh, my Windows PC's PSU? I got Antec HCG-620M (620 watts) power supply unit (PSU) in the summer of 2014. It should be OK? As for UPS' replaced battery, I did retest with a manual fake power outage (unplugged UPS' power cable from the room's wall power outlet) after the failure from a short real power outage. 😞

[ant_apc]

I finally got a a bad news e-mail answer:

... We have had a notification saying that the email is not delivered. I am sorry about the inconvenience. 

As you told, the F01 error indicates 'On battery overload'. We suggest you to reduce the load. If you want this as your load for backup, you may have to replace the unit. Replacing the battery will not resolve the issue.

You can opt for our trade ups program to purchase the new unit...

[ant_apc]

I communicated more with APC's e-mail support. Vikas SP said:

"... I suggest you to reboot the unit once. Please follow the steps to do the same:
1. Disconnect any attached load from the unit and unplug the UPS from the wall socket.
2. Disconnect the UPS' internal battery.
3. Push and hold the "On" button on the UPS for 5 seconds
4. Reconnect internal battery.
5. Plug UPS in to a known good power source.
6. Turn UPS on.

If the issue is there, this will be internal fault and the new unit (BR1500G) will be able to handle the load without issues..."

I tried his suggestion earlier due to a quiet Sunday evening PST. Assuming I did it right from his instructions, I unplugged everything from the UPS including its battery (didn't pull it out all the way, so I could reinsert it easily since it was heavy) and from the house room's wall outlet. As I was holding down its power button for over five seconds to reboot my UPS, I noticed it turned on and beeped right away for about a second and then turned off. It was like it was trying to turn on with its very little power even though the battery was partially pulled out. I assume that this is the correct behavior. I double checked to see if UPS would turn on, and it didn't. If I did the instructions correctly, then this UPS still failed to stay up with over 300 watts load due to F01 overload failure. I also tried other plugs in the same wall socket and on the UPS. It made no differences. 😞 I also retested >110 watts load, and it held up fine with almost 30 minutes left to hold.

Is it possible to fix this old UPS? Is it caused by a cap or something? I still find it strange that Amazon's UPS battery replacement was working fine once when I manually tested it a day later. 😞

Thank you in advance. 🙂

[voidstar_apc]

Sounds like you've done what you can.

[ant_apc]

Yeah. I was hoping I could reuse it 100%.  I guess I can use it partially for now. So, any good new APC models to get that can handle over 500 watts and last a long time in life? 😛

[voidstar_apc]

At this point I'm not sure whether your BX1500G is broken or if your PC draws more than 865W. We'd need to use a well-behaved resistive load like 800 W in light bulbs to test that.

The BackUPS are the value line of products so I suppose you could get a SmartUPS or explore other UPS vendors. The one good thing is whatever you get, you can bring the UPS back to the store if it won't hold up your PC.

[ant_apc]

On 1/8/2018 5:19 PM, voidstar said:

At this point I'm not sure whether your BX1500G is broken or if your PC draws more than 865W. We'd need to use a well-behaved resistive load like 800 W in light bulbs to test that.

The BackUPS are the value line of products so I suppose you could get a SmartUPS or explore other UPS vendors. The one good thing is whatever you get, you can bring the UPS back to the store if it won't hold up your PC.

Are you saying that UPS' real-time watt display is inaccurate? Also, why did the new battery replacement worked at first when I tested it a day later? And then, it didn't work again like the old battery? I am thinking there is something wrong with this old UPS that can't handle heavy loads like 400 watts like it used to. 😞 This UPS was expensive enough when I bought it in 2012. It was nice when it actually worked. 😉

[voidstar_apc]

The real-time watt display doesn't tell us what the PC's power supply is trying to draw when the UPS switches to battery. During this time, the PCs power supply notices the voltage drop and attempts to compensate by drawing more current.

The UPS is reporting (via the F01 error) that during switchover the power draw is over the max wattage (865W). Your conundrum is then: is the UPS correct and the power supply is overloading the UPS or is the UPS somehow broken?

Factors in both the UPS and the power supply effect power draw during switchover. On the UPS side, the faster it can switch over, the less likely the power supply unit will demand maximum current. Higher sensitivity (this is a setting that can be adjusted on your BackUPS) switches faster, and SmartUPS switches faster than BackUPS.

On the power supply side, the bus capacitor can age lowering its capacity and require the power supply to react more rapidly to keep it topped up. Different power supply designs act differently.

[ant_apc]

On 1/9/2018 8:59 AM, voidstar said:

The real-time watt display doesn't tell us what the PC's power supply is trying to draw when the UPS switches to battery. During this time, the PCs power supply notices the voltage drop and attempts to compensate by drawing more current.

The UPS is reporting (via the F01 error) that during switchover the power draw is over the max wattage (865W). Your conundrum is then: is the UPS correct and the power supply is overloading the UPS or is the UPS somehow broken?

Factors in both the UPS and the power supply effect power draw during switchover. On the UPS side, the faster it can switch over, the less likely the power supply unit will demand maximum current. Higher sensitivity (this is a setting that can be adjusted on your BackUPS) switches faster, and SmartUPS switches faster than BackUPS.

On the power supply side, the bus capacitor can age lowering its capacity and require the power supply to react more rapidly to keep it topped up. Different power supply designs act differently.

Very interesting. I didn't know that. I wonder if I could one of those watt readers to put between UPS' battery socket and the PC PSU's power cable to see what the power load is when manually testing. I got Antec HCG-620M (620 watts) PSU in 8/2/2014 so that shouldn't be too old? Supposedly, it is a good one.

[voidstar_apc]

I don't think a watt meter would help. The watt meters are for looking at behavior on human timescales, while switching to battery happens in milliseconds. That's why I think the easiest way to test the UPS' load capability is using things like lightbulbs and hair dryers that you know remain constant so you can use the watt meter either on the UPS or an external one.

If you have another power supply lying around, it can't hurt to try it! Also try changing the UPS sensitivity to "high" and see if it helps.

[ant_apc]

On 1/9/2018 2:04 PM, voidstar said:

... Also try changing the UPS sensitivity to "high" and see if it helps.

How do I change my UPS' sensitivity? I'd try that first!

[voidstar_apc]

Page 4 of the manual (link).

[ant_apc]

On 1/9/2018 10:38 PM, Ant said:

On 1/9/2018 2:04 PM, voidstar said:

... Also try changing the UPS sensitivity to "high" and see if it helps.

How do I change my UPS' sensitivity? I'd try that first!

I tried both high and low instead of default. All still failed with about 333 watts load. 😞

[ant_apc]

I just got this e-mail notification from my Linux/Debian oldstable/Jessie box that is connected to my UPS:

Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 13:48:47 -0700
From: root
To: ant@MyBox
Subject: MyBox UPS battery needs changing NOW.

MyBox UPS battery needs changing NOW.

APC      : 001,038,0987
DATE     : 2018-04-02 13:48:45 -0700
HOSTNAME : MyBox
VERSION  : 3.14.12 (29 March 2014) debian
UPSNAME  : MyBox
CABLE    : USB Cable
DRIVER   : USB UPS Driver
UPSMODE  : Stand Alone
STARTTIME: 2018-02-17 09:42:55 -0800
MODEL    : Back-UPS XS 1500G
STATUS   : ONBATT REPLACEBATT
LINEV    : 116.0 Volts
LOADPCT  : 12.0 Percent
BCHARGE  : 100.0 Percent
TIMELEFT : 50.7 Minutes
MBATTCHG : 5 Percent
MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes
MAXTIME  : 0 Seconds
SENSE    : Medium
LOTRANS  : 88.0 Volts
HITRANS  : 139.0 Volts
ALARMDEL : 30 Seconds
BATTV    : 24.9 Volts
LASTXFER : Automatic or explicit self test
NUMXFERS : 3
XONBATT  : 2018-04-02 13:48:46 -0700
TONBATT  : 1 Seconds
CUMONBATT: 19 Seconds
XOFFBATT : 2018-03-08 07:02:32 -0800
LASTSTEST: 2018-03-08 07:02:23 -0800
SELFTEST : NO
STATFLAG : 0x05040090
SERIALNO : 4B1220P27574
BATTDATE : 2017-10-07
NOMINV   : 120 Volts
NOMBATTV : 24.0 Volts
NOMPOWER : 865 Watts
FIRMWARE : 866.L6 .D USB FW:L6
END APC  : 2018-04-02 13:48:47 -0700


Huh? I got and replaced it back on 10/7/2017.

I need to recheck its status in Windows' APC UPS software and unplug the AC power plug later when I have free time. This was when my weak Linux box is only connected to the battery outlet.

This is quite annoying. 😞

[ant_apc]

On 4/2/2018 2:04 PM, Ant said:

I just got this e-mail notification from my Linux/Debian oldstable/Jessie box that is connected to my UPS:

Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 13:48:47 -0700
From: root
To: ant@MyBox
Subject: MyBox UPS battery needs changing NOW.

MyBox UPS battery needs changing NOW.

APC      : 001,038,0987
DATE     : 2018-04-02 13:48:45 -0700
HOSTNAME : MyBox
VERSION  : 3.14.12 (29 March 2014) debian
UPSNAME  : MyBox
CABLE    : USB Cable
DRIVER   : USB UPS Driver
UPSMODE  : Stand Alone
STARTTIME: 2018-02-17 09:42:55 -0800
MODEL    : Back-UPS XS 1500G
STATUS   : ONBATT REPLACEBATT
LINEV    : 116.0 Volts
LOADPCT  : 12.0 Percent
BCHARGE  : 100.0 Percent
TIMELEFT : 50.7 Minutes
MBATTCHG : 5 Percent
MINTIMEL : 3 Minutes
MAXTIME  : 0 Seconds
SENSE    : Medium
LOTRANS  : 88.0 Volts
HITRANS  : 139.0 Volts
ALARMDEL : 30 Seconds
BATTV    : 24.9 Volts
LASTXFER : Automatic or explicit self test
NUMXFERS : 3
XONBATT  : 2018-04-02 13:48:46 -0700
TONBATT  : 1 Seconds
CUMONBATT: 19 Seconds
XOFFBATT : 2018-03-08 07:02:32 -0800
LASTSTEST: 2018-03-08 07:02:23 -0800
SELFTEST : NO
STATFLAG : 0x05040090
SERIALNO : 4B1220P27574
BATTDATE : 2017-10-07
NOMINV   : 120 Volts
NOMBATTV : 24.0 Volts
NOMPOWER : 865 Watts
FIRMWARE : 866.L6 .D USB FW:L6
END APC  : 2018-04-02 13:48:47 -0700


Huh? I got and replaced it back on 10/7/2017.

I need to recheck its status in Windows' APC UPS software and unplug the AC power plug later when I have free time. This was when my weak Linux box is only connected to the battery outlet.

This is quite annoying. 😞

More details:

PowerChute in my old updated 64-bit W7 HPE SP1 PC: Sometimes self-test passed, failed (see attached screen shot/capture), or unable to carry out at this time.

Physically testing UPS by disconnecting its power AC cable from wall outlet for small PC + monitor only worked fine. No overload and shut down. Obviously connected Windows PC + monitor still shuts down with an overload error and shutdown.

I also tried shutting down everything including the UPS to reboot to start fresh due to long uptimes. I was unable to reproduce UPS' failed test for battery replacement after five tests from PowerChute so far. A few times I got "Unable to carry out a self-test at this time" and passed results, but no failures. Maybe there was a hiccup before the manual power off and on that caused the failed tests for battery replacement messages to show up?

We'll see in the future... To be continued!

[ant_apc]

Last last night, both APCUPSD & UPS told me to replace battery status often even though a quick AC power disconnection with 115 watts load still keeps up.

[ant_apc]

You won't believe it. It was caused by my Windows PC's summer of 2014 Antec HCG-620M (620 watts) PSU making noises from transformer(?). My hardware friend tediously disassembled, cleaned, and put parts back together for both of my PCs. After powering on my Windows PC, he noticed its disturbing noises that I couldn't hear. And then, he changed my PC's over four years old PSU (still under the five years warranty to RMA) with a brand new Seasonic S12 II Bronze PSU. No scary noises. After that, I decided to try my APC UPS' over a year old battery replacement with the new PSU. UPS showed about 275 watts. And then, I tested with 2 PCs + 1 HD monitor for 350 watts! Both worked. OMG!!! 😄

[voidstar_apc]

That's awesome!

[ant_apc]

Yes, and so weird. Have any of you seen this happening with a problematic PSU? We didn't think that could cause the UPS to power overload like that. I did another quick manual test this morning with PowerChute and unplugging UPS' power AC. No problems!

[voidstar_apc · Accepted solution]

Yes, that happens, either due to how the PSU is designed (the Dell XPS 9000 has a famously UPS-incompatible PSU) or due to defects. My posts above go into more details on the mechanisms. Your friend's observation of the PSU making a noise suggests perhaps bad capacitors, although it could also be a coincidence.

[ant_apc]

Thanks Voidstar. It has to be the old age since that PSU was fine years ago. I wonder how long this SeaSonic PSU will last. 😛