Dali GW KNX Error: solutions?

[ld94]

Hello all,

every now and then (around 2 weeks apart) a gateway Dali stops functioning and his state is this (attached image)when I activate the manual operation to check the error.

After a restart, it starts to work again.

How can I solve this?

There’s an ETS object that I can bind to see when this error happens?

Is it possible to restart the GW remotely?

Thank you in advance.

Have a nice day.

[Thomas_Rohde]

Hello Ld94,

I guess we need to splitt your topic into two parts which are the general DALI-Issue (Red-Led) and the stop of operation of the gateway himself. Because normally, even when there are multible problems on one of DALI-Lines, the gateway shoudend stop working. This is not normal!

Lets come back to your questions first:
To "There’s an ETS object that I can bind to see when this error happens?"
Yes there are several objects to investigate which DALI-Errors the device has identified.
With the following Link you will find the manual and starting on page 20 you will find the dedicated objects which you can use to identify the issue.
https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_Doc_Ref=MTN6725-0003_-0004_SW_EN&p_enDocType=System+... 

To "Is it possible to restart the GW remotely?"
There is an option within the ETS to restart a device but the question is if this will work depending on the state of the device himself in case of no operation.

Questions from my side:
- How do you perform the reset?
- Does the picture show a GW which stopped working at all?
- Does the GW stops working when the DALI-Error appears or is it a seperate topic maybe?
- Can it be an EMC-Issue? Do you have big machines next to the DALI-GW?
- Do you have unshielded KNX-Wires installed in the cabinet next to 230V wires?
- Can you provide me the production date of the device? There should be a certain sticker on the device.
 
 

[ld94]

Since that on the manual when the 8/16 led is red means "KNX fault" and I don't see any ETS object regarding this, can you tell me which I should bind? Because, all the failure object seem relative to ECG/Dali failures.

I know that there's on ETS the restart option, but I meant if there's an object or another way for doing it from the Spacelynk.

Your questions:
1. The reset is performed by powering down the cabinet.
2. Yes: it powered on all the ECGs since I've set "Behaviour on KNX failure: Switch to On-value".
3. It stops at the moment that the "KNX fault" error appears.
4. Shouldn't be an EMC-Issue since there are no other machines nearby: in the same cabinet there are all KNX products and AS-P.
5. I'm waiting for the customer reply about the shield product code, but the wires are separated.
6. I'm waiting for the customer reply.

KR
Luciano

[Thomas_Rohde]

Hello Luciano,

to "Since that on the manual when the 8/16 led is red means "KNX fault" "
Hmm, where do you found that? In the manual it is written that this LEDs indicate an error on the dedicated DALI-Group?!

[ld94]

Here.
I probably forgot to say that we found the error using the "Manual mode level 3 and 6".
Moreover, when the fault happens, all the ECGs are powered on, so it should be a KNX failure and not a DALI/ECG one.

KR
Luciano Dalli

[Heribert_Dölger]

Hello Luciano

When being in Man mode 3 the Man LED is lighting up in red. In your picture the Man LED is green. So you are either in Man mode 1 or 2 (LED is permanently green = Man mode 1 or flashing green = Man mode 2). Meaning of channel LED then is different, it then shows the status of the group.

Would be interesting to know the general status of the gateway in case of error. What status is shown when performing ETS devie info. Is status of "application 1" running or stopped? If application status is "running" you could exclude a KNX error.

Could we think of an ECG failure? Some ECGs are creating a short circuit on the DALI line when failing. In such case the gateway will stop providing the power for the DALI bus. That would explain why all ECGs turn on as you have configured such behaviour in case of error.

Kind regards

Heribert

[ld94]

It is blinking red and green, as said in this manual (I've it in Italian right now, I'll try to search for in english).
I should see it when it happens again.
Even if there's a short circuit on Dali, I've set KNX Failure on "power On": does it include also Dali failure?

KR
Luciano

[ld94]

Here is the EN version, from the file from the link in the topic.

[Heribert_Dölger]

Sorry, I mixed it up. What I wrote is valid for the 1-channel device. For the 2-channel device the gateway is flashing red/green in Man mode 3. 

The behaviour on DALI failure can be configured for each group separately. You find this parameter in the tab of each group. The configured value is written into the ECG and adopted by the ECG when DALI power fails. During failure of DALI bus the gateway is no longer able to send a value to the ECG; due to that the value must be in the ECG. 

Then with the indication in Man mode 3 it looks like a KNX failure. Can we think of a failure of KNX power supply? Is there maybe too many devices in the line? Loose connection of the KNX cable?

Interesting would be the production date of the gateway. There had been a problem in 2018 with KNX transceiver component. It slowly stopped communicating, after reset worked again for some time until it finally stopped working at all. Can you provide picture of sticker on top right side. On your picture it is not clearly visible. It looks like 2021 but not sure. 

[ld94]

I'm quite sure that's before 2021, because the first commissioning was done in 2020 xD
Anyway, I'm waiting for the customer to give me the production date from the label but, since on my phone is a little bit clearer, I can see that seems to be written "2020W15".

[Heribert_Dölger]

With that production date it is clearly not affected by the mentioned problem. The affected batches were 2018 Week 1 until 2018 week 31. I also doubt that it would have worked for such long time. It would only be possible if the device was not used several years and had been commissioned recently. 

[ld94]

Any other ideas on what it could be?

[Heribert_Dölger]

Did you check the above mentioned?

- check wiring and connections

- check total consumption on the line (from picture it looks like you have 640mA PS, did you measure current on the line if it is below 640mA, check bus consumption in ETS)

- we could also think about EMC interferences by heavy loads in the near (you already excluded this) or single bus wires laid close to single mains wires (you need to keep a min. distance of 4mm between them)

[ld94]

1. I've asked to check wiring and connections.
2. The total line consumption is way lower: estimated is 516mA with 50 devices (including 1 coupler).
3. EMC interferences are unlikely, but I'm waiting for the cable product code. The bus wires should be not too close to mains ones: I'll ask them.

Anyway, this problem started 1 year ago, and it was, like, every 1–2 months and now every 2–3 weeks.

[Heribert_Dölger]

I'd recommend to wait the results of your checks about wiring etc. On the other hand (and in case results don't find any issues) the phenomen looks like a slowly dieing component (most probably KNX transceiver). Then the gateway needs to be replaced. 

[ld94]

Hello!
The customers said that the wiring is fine and that there are no EMC interferences.
The cable product code is GW90853.

I think that the GW needs to be replaced.

[domotiqa]

When it's down. Do you check the voltage on DALI LINE to see if the KNX DALI actuator is still powering supply ? When it's working check also at start, and at end of the DALI line Voltage.

[ld94]

Thank you @domotiqa, I've asked the customer to do the check.

I'll let you know.

[ld94]

Hello everyone, I've an update.
@domotiqa The DALI voltage when the gateway is in error is 16.8-16.4, from the Gateway: the same voltage applies when it is normally working.