UTS10BI, Honda EM5000SX and Auto Throttle System

[mikepa_apc]

My Honda EM5000SX generator has the Auto Throttle System which according to the Owner's Manual,

"The Auto Throttle system automatically reduces engine speed when all loads are turned off or disconnected. When appliances are turned on or reconnected, the engine returns to the rated speed."

Does anyone know what the switch should be set at for use with the UTS10BI? I guessed 'Off' since the generator is always supplying 240v to the UTS10BI even if no circuits are being powered, but was not sure.

Addl Detail

Switch Position
AUTO: Recommended to minimize fuel consumption and further reduce noise levels when no load is applied to the generator.

OFF: The Auto Throttle system does not operate. Recommended to minimize warm-up time when the generator is started and when starting a load with large start- up power equipments.

[Anonymous user]

i run mine with an EU2000i.  It has eco throttle which is the same idea.  I run my UTS10BI with the EU2000i in eco mode & everything works just fine.

Turn yours to "auto", it will work just the same in either position.  It should have no effect on the UTS10BI.

-Todd

[mikepa_apc]

One more question...When I test the generator, it starts fine, then the UTS10BI tries to start the generator a second time. The test is successful and the generator shuts off as it should. This also happened when we lost power. Any ideas why the UTS10BI does this?

[mikepa_apc]

My Honda EM5000SX generator has the Auto Throttle System which according to the Owner's Manual,

"The Auto Throttle system automatically reduces engine speed when all loads are turned off or disconnected. When appliances are turned on or reconnected, the engine returns to the rated speed."

Does anyone know what the switch should be set at for use with the UTS10BI? I guessed 'Off' since the generator is always supplying 240v to the UTS10BI even if no circuits are being powered, but was not sure.

Addl Detail

Switch Position
AUTO: Recommended to minimize fuel consumption and further reduce noise levels when no load is applied to the generator.

OFF: The Auto Throttle system does not operate. Recommended to minimize warm-up time when the generator is started and when starting a load with large start- up power equipments.

[mikepa_apc]

I was hoping someone from APC would comment????

[BillP]

Well, what I am told is that the generator auto-start is not really supported because of feedback from the Product Safety Commission - so it was intended to be a feature and an accessory kit we'd provide but then I think there was a concern of users auto-starting generators located inside an establishment. There very well could be an issue related to the auto-start/stop times but because we've never supported it, we wouldn't have probably caught it in any testing.

[Anonymous user]

Mike,

I have the same generator, and I leave it in OFF, I can't remember if the auto setting even works as there is a load on the generator even if not much in the house is calling for one.

If the generator starts in auto with a large load it will bog down the generator trying to get back up to speed with the load, sometimes it can't and that can or will cause damage to the generator or the thing thats trying to get the power.

I would leave it off so that it can handle a big load better.

As the the generator trying to start a second time, I think it's on of the start/stop relays on the UTS10BI that need to be set to an other setting, I had to change one of mine, but can't remember which one. (its listed in one of my prior posts when we were discussing some other auto start stuff earlier this year.

The EU2000i generator in the above reply is a inverter style generator and works different than ours.

I hooked my electric hot water heater up after I put 3500 watt elements into it and the generator works fine with that, I did mess up my load shedding settings and when the water heater called for power the water pump turned off and my daughter ran out of water pressure. Thats when I realised that there is no way to turn off a circut when on generator power. Any thoughts on that.  Turning the hot water circuit breaker off does nothing when on generator power due to the circut being fed by generator power. I tried setting the load shead for the hot water heater to off but that didn't work.  It might have something to do with it being a 240v circuit, but I'm not sure.

Nelson

[mikepa_apc]

Nelson,

Should either, or both, your water heater and water pump circuits be set to Delayable=no? Although, with the tank, I'd think the water heater could be delayed.

Is your well pump only 110v? Ours is 220v as is our water heater, so when we are on generator, it's cold showers for us.

I'll look up your old posts for the start/stop relays. The electrician who installed the panel left them at the factory settings.

EDIT 1:

I just ran through the settings about auto start on the UTS and didn't see any about the time between re-tries.

I have the Start delay = 30 seconds and the Stop delay at 2 minutes.

Here's the info from the Auto-Start pdf. My generator starts, and about 30 seconds later, it tries again.

2. When the GENERATOR is to be started or stopped, the START and STOP relays will move to the other position (e.g., from NC to NO). After the programmed Auto Start Delay occurs, the relay’s “momentary” contact (NORMALLY OPEN or NORMALLY CLOSED) is activated for 5 seconds. The relay then reverts back to the inactive state. If it fails the first time, it will try again 2 more times at 15 second intervals.

3. When the GENERATOR fails to start or stop, the relays will move back to their DEFAULT position, and the system will wait 30 seconds before trying again. 4. After the 3rd attempt to start or stop the generator fails, the system will declare a FAULT and display a warning message.

EDIT 2:

I just ran the Self Test and noted when things happened.

00:00 - Start test

00:05 - Generator starts but it is idling, i.e., not up to running speed

00:22 - UTS tries to start generator again

00:42 - UTS tries to start generator again.

Generator comes up to speed

When the test ended, I ran it again. The generator came right up to speed almost immediately and the UTS never tried to restart it.

Since the temp is in the teens Fahrenheit today, my theory is, a cold generator takes longer to get up to speed, the UTS thinks it has not started and tries again. I also do not recall this issue when running the test over the summer and fall months.

What setting can I change so the UTS waits longer between retries?

Mike

[wayne_i_apc]

Mike-

Found on page A-6 of the 07/2007 version (downloaded) of the UTS User Manual, I don't know if there have been changes to these features since then.

But it leads to a question I've had-- What ARE the current firmware version numbers? My unit (Mfd 09/2008) has UTS FW Ver 2 and UI FW Ver 2, and I'm trying to find out if there have been any significant changes.

"The UTS will attempt to start the generator up to three times. The time interval

between each start attempt is defined by GEN START DLY TIME. If the generator

does not start after the third attempt, the system ceases trying, and signals a fault.

When utility power is restored, the UTS will attempt to stop the generator up to

three times. The time interval between each stop attempt is defined by GEN STOP

DLY TIME. If the generator does not stop after the third attempt, the system ceases

trying, and signals a fault."

Since this question was asked, I thought I'd test this information and I found that my UTS seems to delay the start attempt cycle as expected, but each START ATTEMPT cycle retry does NOT change from about 20 seconds as mentioned above (Mike's EDIT 1). FURTHER, after displaying the fault caused by a failure to start then waiting the preset START DELAY time, it REPEATS the START ATTEMPT (try / fail / retry x3) sequence another 3 times (a total of 16 tries)! Only then does the UTS quit trying and display a fault continuously.

So even though there is a (old) documented way to change the "wait time" between retries, it doesn't appear to exist in current units or their documentation... The 2010 "Operation Manual" (and I haven't found a newer manual) states--

"Refer to the documentation in the Generator Automatic Start/Stop Kit for automatic generator configuration instructions", but it is my understanding that that kit was never released.

Seems my unit doesn't match any available documentation! Hmmm...

Wayne

[mikepa_apc]

My UTS10BI info is;

MFG DATE: 06/11/2012

UTS FW VER:2

UI FW VER:3

Here's the complete explanation from the Auto Start Installation Manual

Advanced Generator Start/Stop Configuration:
1. When the START RELAY or STOP RELAY is set to "NORMALLY CLOSED", it means that when the UTS is powered, and the UTILITY power is good, the relay will be in the "NC" position. Conversely, if it is set to "NORMALLY OPEN", then the relay will normally be in the "NO" position. In other words, this specifies their DEFAULT positions, when the GENERATOR is off and the UTILITY or GENERATOR power is normal.
2. When the GENERATOR is to be started or stopped, the START and STOP relays will move to the other position (e.g., from NC to NO). After the programmed Auto Start Delay occurs, the relay’s “momentary” contact (NORMALLY OPEN or NORMALLY CLOSED) is activated for 5 seconds. The relay then reverts back to the inactive state. If it fails the first time, it will try again 2 more times at 15 second intervals.
3. When the GENERATOR fails to start or stop, the relays will move back to their DEFAULT position, and the system will wait 30 seconds before trying again. 4. After the 3rd attempt to start or stop the generator fails, the system will declare a FAULT and display a warning message.
Example sequence of events.
1. Both START and STOP Relays are set to "NORMALLY CLOSED". START DELAY and STOP DELAY are set to 30 seconds. (adjustable up to 60 minutes) 2. UTILITY power is normal, so both relays are in the "NC" positions. That means that contacts 1-3 and 4-6 on the connector will be shorted, and 2-3 and 5-6 will be open.
3. UTILITY power fails; there is a 30 second delay (START DELAY), the START RELAY will move to the NO position, contact 1-3 is open and 2-3 is shorted. 4. GENERATOR starts up normally. Now the START RELAY will move back to the NC position, contact 1-3 is closed and 2-3 is open.
5. UTILITY power returns; there is a 30 second delay (STOP DELAY), the STOP RELAY will move to the NO position, contact 4-6 is now open, and 5- 6 is shorted.
6. GENERATOR stops as expected. The STOP RELAY will now move back to the NC position, contact 4-6 is shorted, and 5-6 is open.
Notes: This sequence of events assumes that there is a UPS plugged into the UPS INLET of the UTS to provide power during the UTILITY failure. If there

is no UPS, or if the UPS's battery runs out before the generator can be started, then the UTS will lose power. If the UTS loses power, both relays will move to the "NC" position immediately, regardless of their settings.

[Anonymous user · Accepted solution]

Mike,

Is the generator auto throttle off?  If it's on, it might not be putting out the voltage the transfer switch needs to see and it might think the generator didn't start, and try again.

My hot water heater is 240v, and the water pump is 120v.