Power meters vs built-in metering in device

[Fabien_Mastrot]

Hello,

what do think about the usage and application to have in Electrical Switchboard built-in metering in the circuit breaker or an external power meter . 

Do you have a vision of the type of application for both cases ?

Don t hesitate to share your point of view.

Thanks

[Anton_Balanescu]

Hello Fabien, Hello the Community

For sure I am convinced Power Metering should be embedded feature in breakerks.

However, as a large part of by business  stays at building electrical maintenance, I couldn't find better solution that upgrading old switchboards with Power Meters .

Considering that in 90% of cases, the need is to monitor energy consumptions, would there exist any breaker retrofit in this purpose?

Would somebody have found such (cost effective of course) solutions?

Looking forward to reading you!

Anton

[BLeprettre · Accepted solution]

Hello Anton and community,

Actually, several breakers offer measurement functions, like the CompactNSX and Masterpact ranges. The features and performance depend on the version of the Micrologic unit.The Masterpact MTZ even offers class-1 measurement performance per IEC 61557-12 and measures several electrical quantities.

Also FYI, the new version of the IEC 61557-12 standard - Equipment for testing, measuring or monitoring of protective measures - Part 12: Power metering and monitoring devices (PMD) introduces the notion of embedded Power Metering and monitoring Function (PMF) : a quality measurement function embedded into a device which main function is not to measure (e.g. a circuit breaker). Therefore, one could expect to see more and more good-quality embedded measurement capabilities in the future, when that makes sense.

Benoit

[faisalamir]

Hi Anton,

Maybe you want to look at our Schneider solution for wireless energy sensor 

This solution can be applied with the existing MCB and MCCB 

Hope it helps  

Regards,

Faisal 

[Romain_Polette · Accepted solution]

Hi,

It depends on your needs....

Micrologic X can propose Class1 Measurement according to IEC61557-12 and Event analysis related to open/close/trip events.

You will need an advanced Power Meter like PM8000 if you need to be conformant with some industry standards:

• IEC 61000-4-30 for Power Quality Events analysis
• IEEE 519 for Harmonics compliance,
• EN 50160 for Voltage quality
• IEC 62053-24 for Class 0.5S accuracy for reactive energy
• Power Events waveform recording
• COMTRADE Export
• etc.

Regards,

[Fabien_Mastrot]

Hello Anton,

Thanks for your application case , your proposal is really relevant. Any other application recommandation ?

In case of issue of space in a panel a solution with class 2 metering can be also proposed by changing the trip unit of the MCCB. 

Looking forwaed to ready you guys on other application. 

Fabien

[T_Parks]

Hello @faisalamir,

Can you tell me more about your powertag sensors?

Is there technical limitations in term of quantity in a switchboard?

What about EMC?

And also, is it possible to link it to a Schneider electric Com'X (I didn't find it into your document)?

or is it compatible with any other manufacturer gateways/concentrators?

Thanks for information.

@community members,

I'd like to hear your experiences with this product as well......

[Peter_Hall · Accepted solution]

Hi,

We have used Powertag in the past on both Prisma switchboards, Compartmented switchboards and feeder pillars.

Prisma because of its open construction is great we got about three columns of out going devices monitored with 5% signal loss. Compartmented switchboards we get one column with modification to the internal steelwork and feeder pillars we have never had any problems.

We have linked them to Com'X via the concentrator and over an building internal network to other Com'X units without a problem. EMC appears to not be a problem.

Best reards,

Peter Hall.

[Anton_Balanescu]

Hi Fabien , 

Regarding other applications I can testify, I would raise one I get more and more required, in Office buildings: property managers and landlords specify MID certified meters, to comply with regulations to enable power sub-billing .

Would that orient this discussion into MID-compliance specific approaches?

Best regards

Anton

[Gregoire_Brun]

Did some of you use the CT bloc we propose with ComPacT NSX offer ?

[Peter_Hall]

Can anyone afford to use the CT blocks offered?

I know that they are convenient but their pricing is way too optimistic. Have a look at what it costs to install 3 x CT's (worst case) and wire up. The price of the CT blocks are probably 300-400% of CT's.

Please remember new technology is all well and good but you still need to compete in the market and be aware of what other manufacturers are offering.

Some companies would like to offer nothing but SE products, however cost considerations need to be taken into account. It is a competitive market out there after all.

[RHH]

Agreed in full with @Peter_Hall 

Especially here on the Dutch Market.

The Dutch are famous for; kijken, kijken niet kopen.
Roughly translated to; look, look, not buying.

We see alot of cool features and technologies but as soon as they ask or we mention

the price tag its considered expensive or not cost-efficient / an necessity.

It completely depends on the project and client as well ofcourse.

[Peter_Hall]

Glad to here that you agree.

It is by no means any criticism of the current offers. 

Just like any company we all have to have ideas that we would like to implement. However, if the costs are just too prohibitive to offer, then we all need to look elsewhere for alternative offers/manufacturers.

Is it not better to sell many units at a price that makes sense to all parties rather than not sell units and have stock sat on the shelf which eventually you have to offer additional discount to sell? 

[Anton_Balanescu]

Warm thanks, @faisalamir, your document is really amazingly comprehensive through technologies & power ranges!

This I will for sure use to evaluate built-in metering solutions in next projects;

best regards.

Anton

[Gregoire_Brun]

Hi Peter, I know that price product could be suprising some time, 

But  time to install and fixe 3 CT compare to the CT's bloc who is directly fixed to the breaker, and space improvment ,

I 've imagine it could be an advantage...

And  between Powertag to a CT block, what is for you advantage between this 2 solutions ?

[sesa97267_bridg]

Hi Fabien,

from a techno-trend perspective, the approach for distributed systems where sensing, actuating and computation are separated would rather invite us not to embed sensing in the CB.

A single sensor shall in the future be able to feed simultaneously several computation units. Dedicated computation units could have dedicated features (CB Protection, Power Quality analysis..) or these computations could be performed in a single unit.

Not for tomorrow, just for the day after 😉

[Peter_Hall]

Hi Gregoire,

Thanks for your reply.

I get your theory. However, in a Prisma switchboard (our standard offer) the space saving is not great compared to CT's.

The problem relating to cost is even great using PowerTag. Again a great product which we have used, but costs again are an even greater issue with this offer.

Best regards,

Peter Hall.