ION9000 sag/swell alarm on and acknowledge but no issue with sag/swell

[Yarom]

Hello,

Before you refer me to the manual and the post from 2024 -> Solved: ION9000 How to acknowledge alarm ? - Schneider Electric Community, I saw it and read it.

However, I have the same problem. I do not see any sag/swell issue. I am well within tolerance. What is holding that specific alarm? And note, it is an old alarm that never cleared. There is no way we have that alarm from a few years ago still showing. We had other events since then and those were cleared.

Thanks,

[Mehran_Mehrnia]

Hi @Yarom 

To verify if a Sag/Swell alarm is still active, open ION Setup in Advanced Mode (hold Ctrl and click the meter). Navigate to the Sag/Swell module and check its State Output Register to confirm the current status.

If a Sag/Swell event has been showing for years, the meter is likely stuck in a Sag/Swell state. You can verify this using the steps mentioned above.

Best Regards,

-Mehran

L3 Expert Advanced metering

[Yarom]

Hi Mehran.

Thank you for your guidance. I am checking in ION Setup as you described and see no output on SS1 DistState:

This client has a 4 ION9000T's on each of 3 sites, all with the same issue. All are showing the same. They have an old waveform that is not the actual case.

If you say that the meter is in a Sag/Swell state, what do we do to clear it from there?

Small side note: I think a great feature to add to the ION9000 or any of the advanced meters would be to not only have a WebHMI but to have a WebHMI feature reflecting exactly what we see on the front panel of the meter (like the simulator). These meters are usually in a room that is inaccessible - must be a locally licensed electrical engineer and get special permits from Electrical Marshal to access MV rooms. If I can have the Front panel on my PC, connected through network, that would be the best. In this case, I cannot see the alarm and for this client we are not allowed taking any pictures at any place in the site.

Best regards,

Yarom

[Mehran_Mehrnia]

Hi @Yarom 

In order to see the register’s value, you need to hold Shift while toggling between tabs. If the status is true, further investigation is required, such as verifying the input values against the configured threshold.

When the meter reports that it is in a Sag/Swell state, it means that a voltage sag or swell event has been detected and the condition is still active. There’s nothing to “clear” manually. The meter will automatically return to a normal state once the voltage returns within the configured thresholds.

You can view Power Quality Summary under Monitoring → Power Quality, such as ITI (CBEMA), but the exact Sag/Swell “State” register (TRUE/FALSE condition from Setpoint or Sag/Swell module) is not exposed on the WebHMI. To see this exact Boolean state, you must use ION Setup, or PME Designer/Vista, viewing the Sag/Swell module inputs/outputs

Best Regards,

-Mehran

L3 Expert Advanced metering

[Yarom]

Thanks Mehran for continuing to look into this.

From your first post, you suggested I check in ION Setup (we do not have PME for this client). I attached to my reply then the same window, which does not show values in the Output Register.  If I go to the same place in ION Setup, when I click Ctrl+Left Click, I get a listing of options to choose from:

Selecting Read Value, I get:

I am assuming that this is what you wanted me to verify.  So yes. as you said in the first reply, seems it is stuck.

I went into events and realized that this happened just when I enabled the Comtrade Feature.

To do that, in Setup Wizard:

I set the clock (to read of NTP server and since then is synchronized).

The Alarm on the HMI is indicating the date and time for which I enabled it (give or take a few seconds).

Here is the Comtrade waveform from the WebHMI for that time:

Not sure what I am seeing. Is that a burst reading at the moment I enabled? If I look now, here is the Voltage readings currently on site and around that for the last long while.... no sag Swell.

Let me know if it is a configuration issue.

Perhaps, if I disable the Comtrade waveform, the alarm will clear, then I can re-enable. But I want to be sure that this issue does not return. It is on my head to fix.

Thanks,

Yarom

[Mehran_Mehrnia]

Hi @Yarom 

You're welcome. 

That’s what I was expecting, the Sag/Swell state should appear as True. As explained earlier, you can check this more easily by holding the <Shift> key and clicking any of the Input, Setup Registers and Output Registers tabs to view the values directly in that window.

Aside from the Sag, Swell limit values, there are other key factors in the Sag/Swell module that affect its operation, such as the Nominal Value and Volts Mode settings.

Nominal refers to the primary power system RMS voltage (line-to-line voltage for Delta systems and line-to-neutral voltage for Wye systems).

Therefore, based on the Volts Mode(Delta or Wye) configured in the meter, the Nominal Value applied as a threshold parameter in the Sag/Swell module varies accordingly. Please ensure the Nominal 22000 V is selected correctly. For example, if Volts mode is Delta then the Nominal value is 22000 V, if the Volts mode is Wye, then the Nominal value is around 13000 V.

For more info, please refer to ION reference -> Sag/Swell Module

Best Regards,

-Mehran

L3 Expert Advanced metering

[Charles_Murison]

Hello @Yarom ,

Give that your screenshot of present values shows Vll and Vln values I can assume that your meter is set to Wye Volts mode. The default behavior of the meter is to use the Vln. This can be overwritten in the setup registers, use VLL always. Only select this option if indeed you are only interested in sags from VLL inputs to the sag/swell module. If you want to detect the Vln sag/swell, use a Vnominal around 22000/(3^.5)

 ~12700.

Regards,

Charles

Regards,

Charles

[Yarom]

Thank you, Charles.

As it is a live application from which to learn, this is a good example for which I will prepare a write up in the end to help understand the concepts. If any of you are ok to continue, I took a screenshot of the setting from the Web HMI.

The original configuration was entered by some QC guy. He had 110V as nominal. When I asked the question, they assumed it was the value from the CT secondary. So, I switched it to 22000 because it is the expected voltage as supplied by the utility, on the primary side of the CT.

As for Volts Mode (network type), based on the panel drawings here are the pages showing the CT and VT of measurement device (ION9000 in this case and protection relay connection):

From these, I see 3 phase + N (a star connection with neutral) = 4W-Wye (correct until here?)

According to the site engineer, the readings we see on the HMI (a little more than 22000 LL and 13000 LN) is correct.

Both you (Mehran and Charles) are saying that depending on the Volts mode will tell us what Nominal Voltage to use.

If I may ask, what impact does the nominal voltage have? What HMI views does it affect if any? Does it only affect Waveform (Comtrade) and Alarms?

The Comtrade waveform screenshot attached in my previous post shows a Voltage magnitude of up to 18600V to -18700V. It looks like a SAG. And that is the waveform of the time and date since the alarm on the HMI is active and still is.

Even leaving the Swell at 110% and Sag at 90%, and setting nominal to 12700, would this not still be considered a Sag/Swell trigger (Swell in this case)?

Thanks again for the continued support.

Yarom.

[Charles_Murison · Accepted solution]

Hello @Yarom ,

Will do my best to answer your questions.

From these, I see 3 phase + N (a star connection with neutral) = 4W-Wye (correct until here?)

Loaded question, the image may not always show all the details. For example some delta systems will have a Delta/Wye instrument transformer so the wiring to the meter is Wye, but the system is Delta. In this setup your volts mode may be Wye, but you are only interested in VLL values. This is why the sag/swell module has use VLL always setting. If the system being monitored is Wye, Volts mode needs to be Wye.

If I may ask, what impact does the nominal voltage have? What HMI views does it affect if any? Does it only affect Waveform (Comtrade) and Alarms?

Nominal voltage is used for PQ analysis, Sag/swell and possibly transients if meter supports. Nominal voltage does not affect any HMI views other than a setting to show what the Vnominal is. Waveform recorder is independant from Vnominal. Waveform recorders are triggered by Sag/swell module that is dependent on Vnominal.

The Comtrade waveform screenshot attached in my previous post shows a Voltage magnitude of up to 18600V to -18700V. It looks like a SAG. And that is the waveform of the time and date since the alarm on the HMI is active and still is.
18600V is the peak voltage, the Sag/swell module uses the RMS voltage, 18600/(2^.5) ~ 13150V 

Even leaving the Swell at 110% and Sag at 90%, and setting nominal to 12700, would this not still be considered a Sag/Swell trigger (Swell in this case)?

127000*1.10 = 13970V rms for meter to report a Swell, 13150Vrms is not a swell. The settings need to match the system being monitored, what does the customer consider nominal voltage, sag voltage and swell voltage. 

Regards,

Charles

[Yarom]

I am starting to see what is happening.

I spoke to the chief engineer of the site. I showed him what you explained.

It comes back to the Volts mode configuration.  The meter, as you saw in the drawing is connected with 3 wires  and neutral from the secondary of a VT at the bottom compartment of the switchgear. This 4W Wye (right?).

The meter is connected to the Utility incomer side, where utility provides 3 wire Delta, 22000V LL.

What would be the correct Volts mode to select?

According to the engineer, and as you said, Nominal voltage depends on the Volts mode type.

If I configure as 4 Wye, then as you say, I should set the nominal Voltage to 12700.

If I configure as Delta, then as you say, I should set the nominal Voltage to 22000.

According to him, it does not matter. He prefers 4W Wye because in this case we can see the behaviour of each phase when a waveform is produced.

I did the change of nominal voltage to 12700 leaving Volts Mode at 4W wye.

Here is what happened:

After I made the change in ION Setup of the Nominal Voltage to 12700, when exiting, the popup of the Device Configuration Checklist shows a configuration warning that PT Primary / nominal voltage mismatch, which I did not have before.

Then I checked the alarm state (from within ION Setup and see that it is False (where it was True before).

This is good (verified on the ION9000 HMI).

The questions I have now:

1. Why it triggered a waveform capture when I exited the ION Setup wizard:

2. What is this value -18,749…18,735 magnitude?

In ION Setup -> Display Data Information and select the Waveform. I Selected V1,2,3 Sg/Sw. Here is what the waveform plot gives:

-20625...20625.

My SgSw interval is 90%...110%.

3. How am I to understand what I am seeing?

Best regards,

Yarom

[Mehran_Mehrnia · Accepted solution]

Hi @Yarom 

As Charles mentioned earlier, the meter is wired in a Wye configuration (V1, V2, V3 and N). Therefore, the Volts Mode should be set to 4W Wye, and the correct nominal phase to neutral voltage is 22000/√3 = 12,701 V.

However, if the transformer primary is Delta and the system is considered Delta, and you are interested in monitoring line to line (VLL) values, you should enable the VLL Always setting. This ensures that the Sag and Swell module monitors VL L values even when the meter’s Volts Mode is configured as 4W Wye.

Regarding the ION Setup warning PT Primary/Nominal mismatch, this warning is expected because your PT primary remains at 22000 V, while you changed the Nominal value to 12700 V. This configuration is acceptable. ION Setup simply issues the warning to help identify potential configuration errors, but it does not indicate that your settings are incorrect. For more info please check ION Setup Checklist Errors and Warnings FAQ.

In this case, you can either keep the PT Primary value at 22000 V and enable the VLL Always setting, or you can set the PT Primary to 12700 V and adjust the secondary accordingly to maintain the exact 200:1 ratio. This ensures that the Sag and Swell module operates correctly.

Waveform capture is not triggered when you exit ION Setup. A waveform is triggered once when the Sag or Swell event occurs, and the meter records the specified number of cycles. A second waveform is then triggered when the Sag or Swell event ends, again recording the same number of cycles.

-18,749 and 18,735 are the peak values of voltages, but Sag/Swell Module uses RMS voltage,

-20625 and 20625 are the min and max scales that are automatically set in the Chart properties:

Best Regards,

-Mehran

L3 Expert Advanced metering

[Robert_Lee · Accepted solution]

To view the values (either output or input), simply hover over the Tab portion of the dialog and a tooltip will appear indicating available options and click appropriately on the tab area to switch (the area in green shown below for the outputs).  So to show values, simply hold down <Shift> + left click on the green area and <Alt> + left click to switch back to normal view.